Zionismus- und Nazianschuldigungen | Zionism and nazism accusations

English version below.

Hallo zusammen,

in den letzten Tagen gab es einige Anschuldigungen sowohl gegen die Moderatoren von !europe@feddit.org als auch gegen unser Adminteam Nazis oder Zionisten zu sein, vorrangig aufgrund des Umgangs mit Kritik an Israel.

Wir weisen diese Anschuldigungen hiermit ausdrücklich zurück und werden derartige Anschuldigungen nicht tolerieren. Insbesondere sind Personen die Andere derart beschuldigen, ohne dass es dafür konkrete objektive Anlässe gibt, auf feddit.org nicht willkommen. Dies ist bereits von unserer Regel zu respektvollem Umgang gedeckt, welcher hier in keinster Weise erbracht wird.

Zunächst einmal möchten wir daran erinnern, dass die Nutzung von feddit.org mit den Rechten und Gesetzen der DACH-Region vereinbar sein muss. Dies ist explizit in unseren Instanzregeln erwähnt, und beinhaltet Deutschland (D), Österreich (A), und Schweiz (CH). Die Infrastruktur von feddit.org wird von der Fediverse Foundation, einem gemeinnützigen Verein in Österreich betreut. Unser Adminteam, welches sich um die Instanzweite Moderation, Organisation, sowie Mitbetreuung der Infrastruktur von feddit.org kümmert ist in Deutschland ansässig. Da wir allgemein den deutschsprachigen Raum als primäre Zielgruppe haben versuchen wir auch entsprechend die Gesetze der Schweiz zu berücksichtigen.

Auch wenn wir nicht aktiv nach Gesetzesverstößen suchen müssen, ist es zumindest in einigen Fällen nötig nach Kenntnisnahme einzugreifen. Dies beinhaltet z.B. wenn Moderatoren oder Admins Meldungen zu Posts oder Kommentaren erhalten, aber auch wenn derartige Inhalte zufällig entdeckt werden, wenn man auf Lemmy unterwegs ist.

https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung

Beim „Hosting“ haftet der Diensteanbieter beschränkt, sofern der Anbieter
keine tatsächliche Kenntnis von konkreten rechtswidrigen Tätigkeiten oder Inhalten hat und sich in Bezug auf Schadenersatzansprüche auch keiner Tatsachen oder Umstände bewusst ist, aus denen die rechtswidrige Tätigkeit oder Inhalte offensichtlich hervorgehen, und
sobald er diese Kenntnis oder dieses Bewusstsein erlangt, zügig tätig wird, um den Zugang zu den rechtswidrigen Inhalten zu sperren oder diese zu entfernen.

Relevante Straftatbestände sind unter anderem Folgende:

Rechtliche Instrumente gegen die Verbreitung von antisemitischen oder terroristische Handlungen gutheißenden Äußerungen, des Deutschen Bundestages (Deutschland)

§ 130 Volksverhetzung (Deutschland)

Einige weiterführende Links:

Wir stehen in diesem Fall vollständig hinter den Moderatoren von !europe@feddit.org, bei rechtlichen Unsicherheiten lieber zu viel als zu wenig zu entfernen.

Auslöser für die aktuelle Debatte ist u.a. dieser Post, welcher der Entfernung eines Kommentars folgte, für einen Vergleich des Nationalsozialismus mit der aktuellen Situation in Israel, was unserem Verständnis nach als Verharmlosung des Nationalsozialismus betrachtet werden kann. Derartige Aussagen können u.a. zu Haftstrafen führen. In dem Post wurde u.a. behauptet, dass die Entfernung zionistische Hintergründe hätte, eine Anschuldigung die grundsätzlich von entsprechenden Nachweisen unterstützt sein sollte, und vor welcher ausgeschlossen werden sollte, dass es alternative Erklärungen gibt.

Wir werden nicht jeden Kommentar der Ansatzweise in die Richtung geht entfernen, jedoch behalten wir uns vor Personen die unsere Instanz, Admins, Moderatoren, oder andere Nutzer ohne stichhaltige Argumente als Nazis oder Zionisten beschuldigen, insbesondere wenn dies mehr als ein vereinzelter Kommentar ist, permanent von feddit.org auszuzschließen.

Hierzu gehören auch Inhalte wie dieser Post von @Deceptichum@quokk.au, welcher kurz davor bereits aufgrund von vielfachen Aufrufen zu Gewalt und Terror von unserer Instanz gebannt wurde. Diese Person scheint zudem auch die Instanz quokk.au zu administrieren, oder zumindest gute Beziehungen zum Admin zu haben, da wir in nahem zeitlichen Zusammenhang eine Zensur auf Fediseer von quokk.au erhalten haben, in welcher wir als Zionisten und Nazis beschuldigt werden, und @Deceptichum@quokk.au in den Raum gestellt hat quokk.au von uns zu deföderieren (Archiv).

Falls diese Zensur von quokk.au nicht zeitnah zurückgenommen werden sollte werden wir quokk.au von unserer Seite für diese anhaltslosen und unwahren Anschuldigungen deföderieren. quokk.au ist eine relativ kleine Instanz mit nur wenigen lokalen Nutzern, welche versucht hat eine alternative Newscommunity aufzubauen, die nicht auf einer der "großen" Instanzen liegt. Leider scheint auch diese Community eine schlechte Alternative zu sein, wenn dies der reguläre Umgang des dortigen Admins ist.

Hello all,

in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of !europe@feddit.org as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.

We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.

First of all, we would like to remind you, that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintaind by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.

Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.

https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung

In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider
has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.

Relevant criminal offenses include the following:

Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)

Section 130 Incitement of masses

Some further links, mostly in German:

In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.

One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.

This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au, who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @Deceptichum@quokk.au has suggested to defederate quokk.au from us (archive).

If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.

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247 comments

Ah, so you're admitting to be a Zionist.
That explains the literal parroting of the very same Israeli propaganda I had seen several times before and the use of the same "here I am the real victim being accused of racism by irrational people" discourse strategy I've seen before deployed by Fascists.
Lovely that somebody with at least 17 pages worth of Palestinian babies (one year or younger) murdered in their names (just in the first 3 months of war) has taken the trouble of coming here and deploy on us peasants a few propaganda techniques so old they must have been on Himmler's book of tricks.
It's not every day that little old me actually has Genocide Royalty right across my keyboard.
- As I said. I believe a Jewish Nation State has a right to exists. Making me a Zionist. What the nation state does, is not necessarily the right thing. Genocide in Gaza as done by the fascist Netanyahu government is clearly not and exclusion towards non Jewish Israelis is also not. The West Bank also should be given back to the Palestinians. Obviously if the Jews have the right to have a nation state, so have the Palestinians.
  Just to be clear here.
  
  There is not a single case in History were a nation claiming to be for a specific ethnicity, be it at the time of their formation or having later been turned by politicians into a nation "for an ethnicity", didn't devolve at least into Appartheid, often into outright Genocide.
  Meanwhile there are tons of nations were some ethnicity or other was the majority of the population without the nation actually being de jure explicitly for that ethnicity, which work fine (always imperfectly so, as human nature is what it is, but at least without state sanctioned oppression of minorities) and don't end up as Appartheid states or committing Genocide.
  At the same time, claiming that "our nation is for
  <ethnicity>
  " is the oldest Fascist and Racists trope there is (for example the KKK literally wants a "White America") and is invariably followed by ethnic violence - or even comes after it and is used to justify it - and often even Genocide, so it's at best pretty naive not to instantly be alarmed when somebody expresses desire for a nation specifically for an ethnicity, and if one strives to not be Prejudiced or Discriminatory, that reaction would be exactly the same no matter which ethnicity that nation was for.
  In being for an ethnic state, no matter what the ethnicity involved, you're being for something that invariably ends up in oppression of minorities and ethnic violence, the only question being "how bad will it be?".
  Supporting the formation of an ethnic nation before its creation can be entirely innocent (if very naive in light of the last century of History and demands for an ethnic nation being a very common Racist trope), still supporting it after it gets created and turns out to have been set up with a citizenship system with different rights depending on one's ethnicity - i.e. as an Apartheid state - is pretty shady, but still supporting it when it's mass murdering civilians of another ethnicity and openly stating that they will take their land, is at the extreme level of Racism and Fascism.
  If you were genuinely honest and well-intended (which, frankly, your word for word repetition of well and truly disproved Israeli propaganda doesn't exactly point towards) you would have been reviewing your notion that it is at all possible to have a nation which is both specifically for an ethnicity and which treats equally and without oppressing all other ethnicities, and would be pondering instead on investing your time and energy in making the whole World (or as much of it as possible) a safe place for that ethnicity (something which, by the way, the extreme violence of the nation which self-proclaims to be for that ethnicity, is making a much harder goal and even reversing past gains).
  
  you would have been reviewing your notion that it is at all possible to have a nation which is both specifically for an ethnicity and which treats equally and without oppressing all other ethnicities,
  Antisemitism has been a massive force, for basically the entire Jewish community. So any state, which is explicitly anti racism, would have and is been extraordinarily well suited to Jews. Any sort of oppression of minorities obviously and clearly leads to racist backlash. Therefore it is in the best interest of any Jewish state to be a state not just for Jews, but for all ethnicities.
  That Israel unfortunately ignores this is clear as day. Otherwise there would be no occupation of any other countries land or any sort of racist law in Israel. At the same time the backlash is also obvious. Israeli Jews very reasonably would have a better life, without the missile attacks for example.
  
  Therefore it is in the best interest of any Jewish state to be a state not just for Jews, but for all ethnicities.
  Absolutely.
  That is, however, never how things turn out when a state is done for the good of a specific ethnicity, because all ethnicities have Racists, Sociopaths and all other manner of people who seek personal upside maximization with no concern for the lives and welfare of some or even any of people other than themselves, who will leverage the whole "this is meant for us" thing into ever more extreme legal and social structures for "taking the shit from other people who are not us" and it's extremely easy to build such structures within an grander power structure - the nation state - that was specifically set up for the benefit of the "us".
  (Let's not forget that the "nation" differs from merely "a place" on the matter of ultimate ownership, control and power - you can have "a place" sitting below large power structure which you do not control - for example, own land in a country which you do not rule - but a "nation" means full control with nothing above it. Calls for an ethnic nation are not merely calls for a place for those of a given ethnicity, they are calls for a place controlled by those of a given ethnicity, which is why supremacists love some much the notion of a nation for their ethnicity - they don't want mere co-existence, they want domination)
  If your whole messaging and power structures start dedicated to make sure a specific ethnicity has control above all others now and forever over a geographical area, it's absolutely natural that outright Racism will develop even if some of the people who started that nation had the best of intentions and the whole thing was only "merely" discriminatory to begin with.
  Israel specifically, actually became full blown Racist pretty early with the Nakba, were the people previously living in that land were forcefully expelled because they were not of the "right" ethnicity with many of the controlling ethnicity very overtly and explicitly saying that such a mass expulsion was needed because Jewish People would not be able to maintain control of Israel forever given that Palestinians had more children than Jews.
  If all the haughty intentions set down in the country's Declaration Of Independence were indeed serious and genuine (rather than merely "the kind of thing we're supposed to write in such an historic but legally meaningless document"), those who had such intentions were either powerless to begin with or quickly removed from power by the Racists, given how little time it took for the country to go from that to doing something like the Nakba.
  It's kinda like the idea that a Dictatorship Of The Proletariat is the way to transit into a situation were there will be Equality For All - it kinda made sense to think it might be so in the 19th century before anybody tried it, but after all the times it was tried and invariably ended up with very large numbers of people killed and never ever delivering that promised outcome, one has to be either extremely naive or a heavy tribalist to still think that the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat is the way to get to an Egalitarian Utopia.
  Creating a nation state explicitly with the intention of it being now and forever under the control of a specific ethnicity always leads to at the very least Apartheid as the members of that ethnicity set things up to make sure they will always be "the boss" no mater what.
  Everything, from History to Social Dynamics to Human Psychology shows or indicates that ethnic nation states invariably end up in Aparteid even if that ethnicity is a majority in that land to begin with and Genocide if the land for that state is obtained by forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for generations but are from other ethnicities.
  I summary, Israel, just like any other nation formed to be under the control of a specific ethnicity, was always fated to end up an Apartheid state because such states always end up thus and a Genocidal one because of how the land used to create it and the power over their lives was from the very start stolen from those who already lived there for generations.
  
  Okay, you are absolutely right. Israel as as it was set up was bound to be racist. I was wrong in defending it in any way. As such. I have to admit that my actions were deeply racist and pro genocide. Which makes my an active supporter of murder and I should be judged according to it. As it makes me actively complicit in the murder of thousands of people.
  I should be just killed for that. It would be fair.
  
  Not the "I am the real victim here" gambit again...
  In your posts you haven't been merely supporting the notion of a Jewish Nation State, you've actually been supporting a very specific implementation of a Jewish Nation State, one that turned violently racist very early on with things like the Nakba and has recently elevated it to an extreme form of Genocide getting pretty close to a XXI century version of the Holocaust (only in this one the murdering of millions is being done using 2000lb bombs and Starvation rather than using Zyklon B).
  Supporting the notion of a Jewish Nation State is a bit like supporting the idea that we should try and reach Communism via the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat - given what has always happened when that was tried, it's a naive idea or maybe the product of bit too much blind tribalism that made people unthinkingly take in certain notions beloved by the tribe without examining them, but it's not indicative that the person who wants it has bad intentions or character.
  On the other hand supporting this specific implementation of a Jewish Nation State after all that it has done since almost its very beginning is like supporting Stalinism after the purges.
  A decent person should in my opinion be rethinking the whole "ethnic national state" notion as a solution for the problems of lack of security and racial discrimination for an ethnicity, but I can get it if they hold on to it and I personally don't think that makes them a not decent person - I know several good people with ideas that I think if implemented would fuck things up for a lot of people, but that's not what they think and they don't intend to "fuck things up for a lot of people" so they're still good people in my view.
  However a decent person, for all their past hopes and dreams for it, will have by now cut their support for this specific implementation of an ethnic national state for the Jewish People once it was visibly beyond all doubt that it was a extremely violent racist state, at all levels and with the support of most of its population.
  Cutting support for it doesn't mean wishing that Israel as a nation stops existing, it means wishing for Israel as a nation the kind of forced restructuring of its system that was imposed to Germany after the Nazis were defeated, and that does include removing any and all discriminatory elements from its laws and compensation for its victims (i.e. the Palestinians) and yeah, like for Germany that would be painful for those there who have gained the most from the Apartheid and the Genocide.
  
  I said you are right and I was wrong! That does not make me a victim.
  
  Your own words:
  I should be just killed for that. It would be fair.
  
  When you are responsible for the death of thousands of people, then the death penatly is warranted. As you said:
  Lovely that somebody with at least 17 pages worth of Palestinian babies (one year or younger) murdered in their names (just in the first 3 months of war)
  After all I am not just so idiot on the internet, but "Genocide Royalty ".
  
  If that's what you concluded, I'm sorry for you.
  It's not a good thing to see death so casually and so easy to deserve.

247 comments