Consent machine

I still can't get over how they were essentially presented with a simplified version of the trolley problem and chose to not pull the lever.

By their own narrative that "the democrats are complicit in a genocide in Gaza", they were aware that Palestinians were metaphorically tied to both tracks, yet decided to not pull the lever when America itself and every marginalized person living within was also on the track the trolley barreled towards.

I suspected that many of the accounts were Russian plants or Trump supporters trying to divide the Democrat vote. Most of the time when I checked account age they were made either that day or the day before.
I know that Lemmy is new and all but still was sus.
I haven't gone back to accounts to see if they are still active. I suspect that they aren't.
- I suspect that what we saw here on lemmy were actual people who had been indoctrinated elsewhere.
  Lemmy isn't really big enough to be a target for bots and so on.
  
  Bots are cheap to write. That's naive to think there wasn't a disinformation war going on with bots being on the forefront of it.
  
  Hmm, I'm not naive enough to believe that Lemmy is free from disinformation and bad actors, but I would be surprised if it was targeted by sophisticated state actors.
- Even worse, I think those Tankies really were just Tankies. They don't want the USA to be fixed, they don't care about creating actual socialism, they just want us all to off each other. I would get into discussions with those supposed purists abstaining from Kamala in democrat centric discussions and they almost always out themselves as another masked up Tankie talking about the USA as an evil empire that needs more destruction.
  They're still active now, too, trying to promote their version of "resistance" which is just more of the nation harming itself until nothing is left to oppose the CCP.
- I actually disagree. I went through many of their comments and post histories. Looked alot like real people with one, devastating bad opinion.
Calling it simplified does a disservice of the real world impacts of the "trolley" - especially since unlike a thought experiment - this trolley problem is physically constructed by people to achieve imperialistic goals - so expending energy blaming random lemmings for this - instead of figuring out who built, maintains and presents the trolley as the only option and how to dismantle it seems useless.
I believe we should avoid infighting and actually organize to do something so we don't have to choose if we pull the lever or not every 4 years (if there even is another election..)
- You do not understand the trolley problem. It's not about assoging blame it's about the dilemma of no perfect choices.
  If you refuse to make a choice until the system has been perfected, until the people who created the system are held to account, etc you are still inside the trolley problem and are actively choosing not to touch the lever. Everyone who chooses to not touch the lever has their own reasons.
  They've articulated their's. This does not change that fact that they choose not to touch the lever. It does not absolve their accountability. It is their choice and refusing to accept their accountability simply indicates they will refuse to touch lever each time they are presented with a trolley problem.
  It is not in our interest to expect them change. So far, those who have choose to touch the lever have shown zero sign they regret their decision. Maybe they will but until they do, they are not welcome at the war table for solving the system. They cannot not to be trusted.
  We cannot continue to be the weak forgiving party. It is the very trait being used against us. It is the very trait of the Democrats that many are demanding.
  Those who refuse are among those voicing such demands but they have shown utter disloyalty and therefore have to be excluded from the solution as they do not pass the bar they have set.
  Accepting those who refused the choice requires a compromise. Those of us who made the choice cannot afford to compromise. Things are moving too quickly to deal with those who must be coddled.
Why the fuck did the democrats leave Palestinians to their tracks?
This didn't have to be a difficult problem where we're forced to vote for genocide. The only people at fault for the democrats doing something as wildly unpopular as genocide, silencing anyone who said "You need to stop this if you want to win", and reaping the effects of that policy being unpopular are the democrats.
I find it scary how easily people where fine with having genocide on both sides of the ticket.
- Not having a choice and being fine with with the choice you have are drastically different situations, and it's concerning how many people are incapable of unwilling to tell the difference between the two.
  
  I would argue the entire problem is the self-defeating mentality that the D vs R choice is the only choice. It's in fact the population believing that - in itself - that results in the poor election outcomes for third parties. Something which was not true as recently as 30 years ago.
  The population, in fact, has the option to vote for any candidate on the ballot, or even write in candidates. The so-called "viability" of third party candidates is a mental fiction. The "viability" only has to do with people's willingness to vote for them, which, in a massive circular logic, is based on their perception that the rest of the population will not vote for them. That is the actual mechanism at play here (besides the truly brainwashed, faithful supporters of the two major parties, at least).
  In fact, the entire U.S. constitutional system is only a tradition/custom, that we have the option to up and abandon when it no longer serves us. The reason we get stuck with it is the various state actors (cops, military) who do not understand that it's not some sacred inviolable thing, or actually support it, and are willing to use violence on the population to enforce its implementation. What actually happens if the indoctrination of the entire population - Trump and Harris supporters and all - is undone, and we come up with a different, better vision for our society?
  
  I would argue the entire problem is the self-defeating mentality that the D vs R choice is the only choice. It's in fact the population believing that - in itself - that results in the poor election outcomes for third parties.
  I'm not going to read the rest of your response, because you might as well be telling me that the person with the most points isn't the one who wins the superbowl. Between that and what little I read of your second paragraph tells me you either don't understand the system, or you don't understand game theory when one side is always going to vote for their guy regardless of how criminal or openly fascistic he is.
  It isn't a self defeating choice that got us here it's literally how the system was designed. You say it wasn't like this 30 years ago, but I question how much you remember of the bush elections, because it's worse, but this was the natural progression with a party who is pathologically against actual governance.
  
  I’m not going to read the rest of your response,
  Then don't reply.
  or you don’t understand game theory when one side is always going to vote for their guy regardless of how criminal or openly fascistic he is.
  Humans are not robots. Anyone can vote for anyone. Their mindset at the time of voting is the only thing that determines their vote. Do notice how fixated people are on attacking third party voters with almost no influence over the election, instead of... 77 million? Trump voters, who decided the election. Have you tried unbrainwashing them at all? Like, tally up all the time you spent trying to influence people's votes - what percent was aimed at Trump voters?
  It isn’t a self defeating choice that got us here it’s literally how the system was designed.
  It resulted from the design of the system + our society, but those two things are not mutually exclusive. Logical error.
- No sane people were fine with it, but sane people have to live in the real world and not believe some fucking fantasy that there was another option at the time.
  
  The democrats did have another option at the time.
  
  We all did.
  
  Let's start with the very basic logic here. Let's say 80, 90 million people come out and vote for, say, De la Cruz. Accounting for the electoral college and all that, enough to secure a victory. Is it not true that virtually all of us had the option to put a check next to her name, or write that name in? It is true. Is it true that we would have had a better outcome for the society with De la Cruz, than we would have with Harris or Trump? That is also true. So what - SPECIFICALLY - stopped this from happening.
  
  Because I’ve never heard of De la Cruz, or any of the other third-party candidates that people keep espousing. And even if I had, my vote would be split among the other dozen candidates. That’s the fundamental problem with anyone left of the Democrat party - they’re not unified. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what would be best, everyone seems to have a different favorite candidate. Now all the votes that might have gone D are lost in the noise, while the R’s just fall in line like they always do.
  
  How is it that I had heard of them months before the election, and you're still catching up?
  Back to the point I made elsewhere - the population is abdicating their responsibility to vote responsibly, that is the core problem here. Election came and went, and you didn't even research the non-D/R candidates. As the saying goes, politics isn't a spectator sport. Your approach is basically like going to a car dealership and asking them nicely to give the best deal. You gave up all your power at the door. You didn't fight them on the random fees they threw into the price, you just went, well, at least it's not the RAM dealership across the street. You didn't look on Craigslist for used cars listed by sellers, you didn't ask a mechanic what brand to get, nothing.
  
  If everyone who had voted for Harris had voted for De la Cruz instead she still wouldn’t have won.
  There are no serious third party options in the US currently.
  
  If everyone who had voted for Harris had voted for De la Cruz instead she still wouldn’t have won.
  And?
  There are no serious third party options in the US currently.
  As assessed by you, based on arbitrary criteria and questionable analysis.
  
  I just gave you the results of a poll called the 2024 election.
  Is that based on arbitrary criteria and questionable analysis?
  
  For the ten thousandth time in this thread, it's circular logic for a population not to vote for someone because they think no one will vote for them.
  
  That’s why I voted for myself.
  If I don’t then I will never win!
It's almost like single-issue voters aren't very good at logic problems…
- The trolley problem is not a logic problem JFC. Every one of you gets an F in philosophy 101.

I remember the BBC manufacturing consent for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris complicity genocide as well.

It's also obvious that Trump and BB were coordinating during the election to ensure Biden couldn't get a ceasefire deal in place in order to harm him politically. But as soon as Trump takes the office they just agree to a ceasefire no problem (as if that hadn't been the plan all along) aaaaaaand then Trump goes off about finishing the job and annexing the whole west bank for the US. What a fucking surprise.

I thought the ceasefire happened under Biden, but after the election had already been lost?
- It did, but it was Trump's representative who got the deal done. Trump didn't want to deal with the hostage crisis along with everything else he had planned.
It’s also obvious that Trump and BB were coordinating during the election to ensure Biden couldn’t get a ceasefire deal in place in order to harm him politically
And Biden played right into their hands.

The point was to pressure the Dems into giving up on genocide. You wanna talk about "pepperidge farm remembers", I got one for ya

Remember when the Dems thought they could win while actively telling people who were anti genocide to go fuck themselves?

Hey, what's weirder? Not voting for someone committing genocide, or being unwilling to stop committing a genocide even if it costs you the election?

How does it feel that the only thing that Harris had to do was say "I will stop weapons to Israel" and she would of won?

You can't keep blaming the voters when the strategy was at fault. They knew they would lose votes. They thought they could court the centrists and liberal Republicans to make up for it. They were so fucking wrong. And somehow it's not their own fault for having the worst campaign strategy known to man.

Like, Christ. Y'all ain't ever gonna stop trying to blame leftists. You'll be up against the wall with leftists fighting for your life and you'll still be like "can't believe you didn't vote Harris". I can't believe Harris threw away the election over the continued genocide of palastinians. That's fucking crazy. Is that not crazy to you? You don't find it fucking insane that the Dems would rather a fascist state than stop actively committing a genocide? Cause that's the fucking Gambit they ran and look where we are.

Look. I'm pissed. Your pissed. But we are just people with no power. Same with all those voters you wanna complain about. All we have is the ability to yell and vote. And while I voted for Harris out of fucking fear, I cannot blame the people who yelled "I will not vote for you if you keep committing genocide" and were fucking CALLED ON THAT SHIT. What kind of monster gambles with their own base over a fucking genocide?

As a fellow reluctant Harris voter, what upsets me the most is that the numbers people have run shows that no, actually, genocide was not the deciding factor in this election, which is kind of an indictment of America itself, but regardless, I'm sick of leftists being blamed when all the ones I know STILL voted Harris and the data shows that it wasn't leftist that didn't turn out, it was centrists. Harris didn't have a voter base. Sure, some dems turned out, but she didn't actually inspire people to vote, and that's basically the only way dems win.
- It's because she has no message. All she could promise voters was stuff like "I'll give you a little bit of money to help you get a house." She was all flash and no substance.
  
  *for first time homebuyers who have rented for at least 2 years without a late payment
  Because there's nothing that makes a proposal more popular than adding means-testing.
  She had a message, it was "more of the same"; when asked what she would do differently from Biden her response wasn't "Fuck this guy who spent the last 4 years doing fuckall, I would have defended abortion rights, appointed an AG who would have put Trump in prison and gone after Manchin and Sinoma, and any republican, a head of the DEA who would have unscheduled cannabis, etc", she said the difference was that she would appoint a republican to the cabinet.
  
  100%
  She could have read a laundry list of her First Week, Month intended actions and won over huge swaths of voters- if that was her strategy to win.
  Instead she chose fuckall, which is exactly what Biden did for 4 years.
  
  That promise for housing gets misquoted as well as what she actually offered was:
  First generation homebuyers who no one in their family has ever owned a house, after paying rent in a government approved rental firm for 2 years could get up to $25,000. And stated starter homes would cost between $300,000 and $800,000 dollars depending on location.
  She did have a point to ask Congress to pass legislation to slow people buying more than 50 single family homes.
  This was lost to her wealthy advisors telling her to not go through with these plans as they would impact the investment opportunities of housing.
  She barely even got to flash before the DNC tried to reign in anything that might change things.
  
  Yea, I see a lot of quotes online about how her brother-in-law or whatever had her rein in some policies and how she had a bunch of advisors that further reined in her policies, but if anything that kind of proves their point. She had no substance of her own and was willing to campaign on literally nothing believing that was the way to get elected. Kinda a devastating indictment of both her and the dems and the political industrial complex.
  
  Agreed. Absolutely agreed.
  She offered so little in the first place that the fact that she was told to offer even less with expectations that it would make her win the more desperate masses because it wasn't anything "bad™" at least... It's a huge statement on what they want to offer and what they expect in return:
  The answer to both is simply, nothing.
  Give nothing and expect nothing in return so that things hopefully stay the same. It's a massive failing of politics right now.
  
  For what it's worth, she did have some good policy proposals, but she had some good policy proposals for a neoliberal. The US has had enough of neo liberal politics, and it's extremely unfortunate that it meant a turn to fascism. She was going to be a JoeBiden 2.0, if not even less effective. Joe Biden's seminal piece of legislation with build back better couldn't even make it through. Easy to point to things that you want to do, even if they are liberal, but neo liberals have been failing to enact even their absolutely minimal policy desires. It's so pathetic and so sad that we are all suffering because the owning class is the way that it is
- Why blame the politicians with data and statistics on how to run a campaign when you can blame the voters who showed up?
  How many times do we have to "swallow our pride" to vote for milquetoast candidates before we can have change? How many times do I have to vote for "nothing will fundamentally change" before I can call bullshit?
  
  This exactly. Honestly, the thing I hate most about the republicans isn't even who they are, it's who they've made us. I've compromised on my morals more than I can count just to still be ruled by fascists. I wish I could at least have arrived here on a high horse lmaoooo.
  
  Republicans are obviously fucking evil. They smile as they pass laws that enable the worst parts of the government to be even worse. And then say it's because of the woke or some shit.
  And then democrats just... Allow it. They then go "our compromise was that we allowed 2% less people to die from this bill being passed. So only 500K will die from this, instead of 501K."
  And it's obviously better by numbers, but that's all they want. Pure data. They don't care about the optics of actually trying to stop republicans, they want the look of it.
  They don't want to stop aiding genocide, pretending they care about BIPOC as they say to bipartisan applause "We need to fund the police!" as they kneel for a photo.
  But pass a law that says "Police should obey the laws they enforce" is impossible for them, somehow, no matter how many votes they get.
  I've been swindled too many times. Republicans are obvious in that they hate me. Democrats act like a friend and then ghost you.
  
  Wish I had more to add, but you definitely covered it all. It's just gross. I know fascists win when we disengage, but dems have been teeing this up for them to knock out of the park for decades. I just wish you and yours the best and I hope you're safe and able to make it through.
  
  I wish you luck too. The average person isn't my enemy, it's the ones in power who enabled the evil, and the ones doing the evil.
Remember when the Dems thought they could win while actively telling people who were anti genocide to go fuck themselves?
I do, and was downvoted for calling it out from my last account, and this one for remembering it.
Are these people gaslit or are they doing it for their favorite political celebrities who don't know they exist or care for them?
- Anything other than concede to the left. Gotta protect that capital
  
  Democrats love losing because it gives them more money as Republicans enact evil policies. "We can't stop them! ...unless you give us what's left of your paycheck! That's how we can stop trump! Your money!"
voting is power, hell not voting is power. is it a fair system?
fuck no, but not voting did help get us here
disclaimer: gerrymandering and voter suppression also played a huge role
You know who committed genocide?
Stalin killed thousands of Poles. The USA had lynchings going on all through WW2. I'm not even going to start on the UK.
And they were all better alternatives than Hitler.
- Greatest defence in the world. Vote for lynchings, better than extermination camps.
  Or. Hear me out. Put a fucking bullet in both of them some bitches and stop accepting the lesser evil.
  
  And what gun are you going to use?
  Tell me what plan you have that puts Trump out.
- Stalin killed thousands of Poles.
  Won't anybody think of those poor innocent Germans Stalin killed?
  The USSR was at war with right-wing insurgents. If you want to go down a rabbithole, do some research on any "polish resistance", 50% chance you'll come across nazi collaboration, warcrimes directed at jews, or both.
  
  So, you're saying Stalin should have turned down help from the Brits and Americans?
  
  What are we talking about? I'm just saying one of those leaders was not like the other.
  
  I'm talking about getting allies.
  If you're saying Stalin was perfect, okay. He still got in bed with the US and England.
  Are you saying he shouldn't have done that?
  
  lol Stalin wasn't perfect, he did some awful things such as the internment or relocation of minorities in preparation for WWII and various advice/demands he gave to the CPC that was catastrophic.
  But to address your point, your enemy giving you equipment to help you fight another enemy doesn't track to telling anyone telling the democrats that genocide is unpopular to shut up.
  If yall had helped us, the democrats might have listened and not have driven the bus off the cliff. If we had shut up, they absolutely would have driven off the cliff.

Cool, we remember - now what? What do we materially do now to resist that isn't just blaming non-voters online?

Blaming other people and feeling superior is how Democrats win! Aren't you paying attention? Hey, where are they taking us??!
Go protest, resist being part of that genocide by laying down work. Call or write your local representatives voice your opinion and ask how you can help to stop that.
Get ready to vote Dem really hard in 2028 /s
There aren't many options... Which is probably why op is blaming non-voters, who are complicit in creating our current situation.
- Which is probably why op is blaming non-voters
  Should probably blame the people who actually voted for the guy and not an unrelated third party
  Bunch of butthurt authoritarians whining about people they failed to engage and saying "but that's the system we're in" like that doesn't apply equally to having to convince people to vote FOR you
  
  Blaming both camps is the best way to go. But why spend efforts blaming the Trump voters? Presumably, they aren't subject to appeals of logic or compassion or they wouldn't have voted for him in the first place. So we know they're pieces of shit. But the jury is still out on the protest non-voters. Did they fail to vote because they disagreed with kamala on a minority of her positions, or did they just not want to elect a brown woman? Assuming that they understood the choices of outcomes between candidates, they voluntarily chose to ignore the greater good for their own personal disagreement. Additionally, there's evidence that if those protest voters had voted for Kamala she would have won. Therefore, they are to blame. To ignore that is to be an apologist for those at fault.

'allegedly'

The mental gymnastics will only intensify as these fucking crypto-nazis get to distance themselves from their beliefs and actions of just a few months ago.

Interesting that such a fucked system exists that could allow the 50/50 chance that who wins an election could singlehandedly decide if everything is fascism and genocide or not, with what appears to be no real checks of power in place.

And you choose to blame those who have nearly no control over said system.

Lemmy is also a tiny community relative to other similar communities online. Lenmy is also not even just people in the US. You also don't know how many of those posts were trolls or bots.

It sure seems to me that the larger system and set of choices are completely fucked to begin with and gives the "people" next to no options or say in much of anything.

But yes. If Lemmy people had not slammed Harris.... then... something might have been..... different?

The system is fucked but we exist within that system.
That's the thing American citizens/voters need to remember if/when we get past this term: Trump didn't do this by himself. He was enabled and empowered by Republican (and a significant number of Democrat) members of legislation, as well as crooked judges across every level from state to Supreme. Trump will be kicked out and Republicans will say "Phew, that guy was a disaster! Right, guys? Good thing we all worked together and survived it." And we can't just let them do it; everyone currently serving in office from the GOP and 60% (if I'm being very generous to the remainder) of the Democrats should be barred from holding office again. Extend that to the judges too.
The GOP has worked hard to sew shite into every strand of the fabric that binds the nation together. And so insiduously that many idiots will stare at a shite-brown rag and say it's still the same, ol' Red, White, and Blue they remember.
So, yes, if you were in front of the trolley lever, you’d remark “Wow, this system is fucked. Why do we even have trolleys? Shouldn’t they have brakes?”
…and then not pull the lever.
- If? None of us are remotely close to any trolley lever. Grow up and get real. Your idealism is a garbage pile you treat as a high horse.
- None of you crypto-nazis can be honest about this discussion. You keep lying and presenting the choice as between two unequally bad options. If anything the democrats have been objectively worse in hindsight. There would have been no ceasefire if you had your way.
  Now that Trump is in office you want to put on your resistance hats again like we didn't all just watch you rabidly support the genocide yourselves.
  
  You keep lying and presenting the choice as between two unequally bad options.
  This is why people disregard your opinions, because you lie and pretend that they weren't unequally bad options.
  They were both bad options, but saying they're equal tells me you don't pay attention or are intentionally lying.
  
  You can hold that belief because you're a white supremacist that doesn't value Palestinian lives as human
  
  You're fucking hilarious.
  Wanting to minimize harm by voting for someone I don't want to because there's a chance of working with them to further reduce harm means I'm a white supremacist that views an abhorrently persecuted population as non-human. Kamala and Biden weren't running around saying the USA is going to take over Gaza and turn it into a resort. Trump is.
  You play the hand you're dealt - not the hand you wish you had my dude.
  People voted for the least shit-covered sandwich, and you insinuate that we're monsters? Lmaooooo
  Pass whatever shit you're smoking because it seems fun.
  
  Wanting to minimize harm by voting for someone I don’t want to because there’s a chance of working with them to further reduce harm
  You voted for someone who was committing a genocide. Fuck you.
  Doubletalking nazi piece of shit.
  
  It was the same cease fire that was on the table months ago, the only difference was that Isreal was going to continue the genocide until it looked good for their choice of president. And they didn’t even honor it.
  
  The idea that the zionists were conditionally doing genocide for a year just to make your political opponent look good is fucking insane. You're extremely stupid for not recognizing the relationship between the US and israel gave Biden the ability to stop it any day he wanted as well.
  
  I didn’t say that. I said they were going to SAY they were going to honor a cease fire to favor a certain President. They fully intended to continue the genocide unabated either way.
  That cease fire was put forth under Biden’s watch and was “agreed to” right before the transition with the caveat that it was trumps team that succeeded. Do you not remember Biden getting raked over the coals for this when he was announcing it?
  
  Real fucking annoying how you both completely sidestepped my point and doubled down on the shit you began your comment lying about not saying. So I'm just going to repeat myself. Maybe this time it will sink in.
  You're extremely stupid for not recognizing the relationship between the US and israel gave Biden the ability to stop it any day he wanted.
  
  In no way did i argue that Biden was not complicit in genocide, he could have just not given Israel weapons. He was, and trump is guilty of that. My only interjection was to point out that attributing the cease fire to trump is wrong not only because they were colluding to make trump look good, but they didn’t even honor the cease fire anyway so it’s a moot point. They both suck, trump sucks way harder.
  
  attributing the cease fire to trump is wrong not only because they were colluding to make trump look good
  This is an insane thing to think. That Israel's behavior isn't determined by the immediate interests of its ruling class but instead the transient and superficial perception of an incoming already elected president. Just full on blueanon conspiracy brain.
  If this was done to make Trump look good, it was done by Trump using the power Biden left on the table. It wasn't done as a favor or a handshake deal.
  but they didn’t even honor the cease fire anyway so it’s a moot point
  Do you honestly think there's no difference between a ceasefire that's being violated and a full on invasion and occupation? Do you think Israel remains at war with Lebanon?
  
  Paying only lip service to trump cost them nothing, and pays big dividends to them. They fundamentally had to change nothing to accommodate this. This is pretty much accepted as very transparent to all but you.
  At no point did i equate faking a cease fire, to an invasion. Trump plans to invade Gaza, and i believe i specifically mentioned trump was way worse.

Honestly not sure why it hasn't been suggested that the 'no vote' bullshit was a tactic to get Repubs the win. Sure as hell worked and didn't do anything to solve the issue, as we can blatantly see now.

Wasn't the idea to get the Democrats to explicitly state they were a anti genocide and promise policies to back that up?
- That was the big ask, yes.
It has, it's been a conspiracy on lemmy for the past 6 months. Any time anyone criticized Biden or Harris for aiding a genocide someone would pop up and say they're a secret republican or Russian bot.
- If I had a nickel for every time I was called one of those, I'd have enough to flee the country from Trump.
It has, constantly. Anyone who disagrees with you folks is labelled a Russian bot who wants Trump to win. Even if they fall in line they were labelled that way, just for saying things like, "I'll vote for Biden but his age is a legitimate concern."
- You must be unquestioning, do not question the party! You don't wanna be one of those do you? You will vote for who we put in charge without your first amendment rights to question them!
It absolutely was. And it was pushed by tiktok, a Chinese psyop.
- [citation needed]
  
  TikTok's algorithm exhibited pro-Republican bias during 2024 presidential race -
  From an article posted very recently in Politics
  
  ...that study demonstrates how Republican talking points were more easily boosted in TikTok's algorithm. As in: Republicans were better at getting their message across on social media.
  It also doesn't do, in any way, what was asked: citation on how it was a Chinese psyop.

I mean she entirely was.

And considering the US blocked every ceasefire under her and Biden, and people pointed out even a year ago that the US and Israel want an alternative to the Suez canal, and people pointed out that Israel was moving Palestinians out with the US's help in order to do this, all that happened. Pretty sure it was going exactly the same way. If you haven't noticed, democrats aren't exactly sitting up and saying this is ethnic cleansing or genocide even now. Or trying to fight it.

You're an idiot and the reason Trump won and is ruining the country. Congrats you enlightened centrist. Stupid fuck
- My guy I'm exceptionally left wing in my politics I'm not even close to centrist. I'm not sure how you got that from my response.
- Hey, everybody, we need to ignore trolls like this. They're trying to divide the left. Instead, we have to unite to fight Trump.

Harris was complicit in genocide.

Trump loudly talked about how he would make the genocide worse.

Why absolve Harris in an attempt to strengthen your argument?

nobody is absolving Harris. She was the lesser evil, and many people chose not to choose, resulting in the greater evil anyways.

I don't think history looks back negatively on any "I won't support [a little] genocide" crowd, if there isn't maybe this will be the first.

Is there a particular "this group of common folk opposed Hitler wrongly, everything's their fault" narrative that is common? I meant this as a rant, but I'm too ignorant and perhaps there is. Obviously, Nazis and Nazi supporters are criticised. There's those in power that handed it off to Hitler that take some flak. But those without power and also didn't support Hitler what criticisms do they come under

Learning the lessons of history and who future generations are going to blame for the here and now. Is it going to be leftists that didn't vote Nazi?

Unironically, there's people that blame Hitler on the German communists for not bending the knee to the people who sicced literal death squads on them, kill lists and everything, less than two decades prior.

GeNoCiDe jOe!!!

So, every hypothetical situation besides Trump winning, in the end, did not play out, due to the failure of the American population to mount a united opposition to Trump. Harris didn't win, De la Cruz didn't win, Stein didn't win, West didn't win, etc.

Now let's focus on this question for two seconds, because I don't think you all have ever actually addressed it. Putting aside the supposed "viability" as a reason for to vote for them - since that's circular logic before the election has even happened. Putting that ASIDE. Of all the non-Trump candidates, who, in the seat of the Presidency, would have been the best candidate for the job? Who, sitting in that office, would have produced the best outcome for Americans, or the world as a whole?

I argued with them constantly. I think a lot of them were bots but whatever

Man I really wish you guys elected Harris or Joe Biden to sit back and watch this happen instead of talking about it openly, that would have been great for the Palestinians.

I'd rather have someone watch me fight a bear then have them help the bear by shooting me, and the rest of my family, repeatedly while I fight it. So yeah really would've been a lot better.
- And by watch, I mean supply the bear with billions worth of bombs
  
  I'm not the one that made the claim. I'm merely carrying on the anaolgy. Read what I replied to you jackwagon.
  
  What the heck are you even on about? Did you reply to the wrong person?