Self-styled “anarchists” decrying revolutionary violence as “authoritarian” and “oppressive” are so on my nerves.
Do they think the Catalan Anarchists had no bourgeois blood on their hands? Do they think the Makhnovites never executed counterrevolutionaries? Fucking idiots. I preferred it when anarchists actually threw pipe bombs.
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So fucking tired of this. Y'all sound just like the whiney people on 196 trying to get rid of tankies.
" they are just a bunch of teenagers online" "I never met one in real life"
When I am allowed to be a "real" Anarchist?
Where's the fucking line? When I dont critize MLs? I'm an anarchist online and in the streets. And I'm honestly so tired of having to come to the only real leftist community on Lemmy and still have to watch y'all bash anarchy with the same effort libs bash commies.
I have problems with authority. And problems with the ideas of Marx. And the implemntation of communism throughout the life the USSR. Specifically the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the use of centralized authority.
Im anti-capitalist, I'm anti-police and pro prison abolition. But I'm willing to work with other leftist toward the bigger issues. Like Palestine.
When are anarchist going to be accepted in this community?
Y'all honestly make me so sad. I go to Lemmy.world I gotta read people licking Israel boot. I come here I got to watch y'all punch down on anarchy.
Yall are a fuckin disappointment.
A collection of Marxist communities, for memes, learning, news, discussion, media, or anything you like
From our sidebar. We arent hexbear, we dont really believe in left unity like them. You’re welcome to participate, and you won’t get dunked on as an “anarkiddy” if you make serious comments arguing for anarchism here, but yes you will see a lot of venting about anarchists, I would suggest blocking lemmygrad comms if you dont want to see that.
I see that more clearly now. I don't want to block any leftist community on Lemmy. I don't think that's a good solution long term.
But many people have commented the same thing. So I will consider it. Maybe I just won't engage with y'alls community.
If you’re hesistant about it, the worst of it will be contained to !memes@lemmygrad.ml and !moretankie196@lemmygrad.ml. Would definitely block !shitultrassay@lemmygrad.ml, probably block this one (leftist infighting) although its not very active.
The reality is there are a lot of usufferable anarchists (especially online) who refuse to engage with real theory or history. I have all respect for people like you who critically support AES but maintain a different ideology. I and some others on here do try to make clear the difference between pop anarchists who hate China because they’re told to despite “being against all authority” and your time. Yes, some here go too far with it, and I do not agree, but I see where they are coming from.
I appreciate your comment.
The reality is there are a lot of usufferable anarchists (especially online) who refuse to engage with real theory or history.
I get that. I really do. Ive seen some of this myself. And I can understand and appreciate people calling them out. But I Just feel that they are too often becoming the complete face of anarchy on leftist Lemmy communities.
Yes, some here go too far with it, and I do not agree, but I see where they are coming from.I
I would also like to point out, that this same thing that happens on Lemmy dot world. But for commies.
Libs go and find the least educated, loudest idiot calling themselves a communists and take screen shots too post on tankiejerk.
Its really just cheap shots IMO.
You are plainly taking this in bad faith, they don't mean anarchists who do support revolution and they could hardly be more clear in that fact. Try rereading once before denouncing an entire instance of fellow communists.
I am mildly curious why, if it hypothetically was attacking anarchism in general, that would be "punching down".
I am mildly curious why, if it hypothetically was attacking anarchism in general, that would be "punching down".
I say punching down because the the majority of active leftists communities on Lemmy are dominated by MLs and other commies. & I see a lot of general hate towards anarchists. which is apparently a much smaller of a group.
Nothing on the rest?
You are plainly taking this in bad faith, they don't mean anarchists who do support revolution and they could hardly be more clear in that fact. Try rereading once before denouncing an entire instance of fellow communists.
I've stated this in other comments:
These kinds of posts are the only ones I see regarding anarchy. Only calling them "anarchkiddiez" or libs.
Its not clear to a person who is newer here that there is a difference. And Further I know from experiance many people In the community really do think anarchist are fake leftist.....
Frankly, its gets old going from Lemmy world seeing communist bashing just to come here and see anarchist bashing.
It makes me feel like I am not welcome any where on Lemmy.
Remember this is a lemmygrad and not hexbear post. Stick to hexbear if you're sensitive about it, or block the leftist infighting comm and you'll see much less from lemmygrad about it.
And Further I know from experiance many people In the community really do think anarchist are fake leftist.....
People typically understand that criticizing anarchism more generally requires a more substantial critique, and plenty are willing to offer it and have done so already.
plenty are willing to offer it and have done so already.
I'm sure your right but mostly I just see anarchist bashing.
Maybe you can link some post with earnest anarchist critques? That's really the reason I'm here to see real critiques of anarchy so I can learn more.
Where’s the fucking line? When I dont critize MLs?
Are the MLs currently undermining your commune project or your dual power building? If yes then actually yeah come criticise them that would be super interesting for us.
No the projects that I'm apart of are often with people who are very supportive of anarchy. Or are anarchists themselves. I really only see the anarchy bashing when I come here......
So if we're talking about theory let's agree to disagree, because you'll never "convert" anyone to anachism here and we'll never convert you either
Which means that for you it's not very interesting to come and criticise ML ideology, I suggest you formulate your criticism as questions. Like "why do you think the USSR went down this road, do you think it's ideal?" We will respond happily
for you it's not very interesting to come and criticise ML ideology, I suggest you formulate your criticism as questions.
I'm not here to critize ML, really. I just don't want to constantly see anarchists being bashed.
I'm here to learn. But I'm not gonna stick around just to see the same weak insults be thrown around. Its becoming apparent that this community doesn't really care tho.
I understand your frustration. As multiple comments pointed out, you shouldn't take that bashing for yourself. We're talking about some undetermined online accounts who tag themselves as anarchists, and clearly you're not from that crowd.
Y'all honestly make me so sad.
Yall are a fuckin disappointment.
https://hexbear.net/post/835630?scrollToComments=false
Sounds like you weren't as interested in learning from "dirty commies" as you had previously thought when the weather became less fair.
I'm aware of my own post is this some sort of got cha?
when the weather became less fair.
Are you talking about when y'all openly bash anarchist? Calling them libs?
Yeah I'm not really cool with that.
Your comment has no real critique of my ideology. Just shows that isn't room here for anarachist of any kind.
Your comment has no real critique of my ideology. Just shows that isn't room here for anarachist of any kind.
You're currently commenting in Lemmygrad, an explicitly ML instance, in the "leftist infighting" community.
Your post above was in Hexbear, a "left unity" instance, which has rules against sectarianism.
If you're not interested in seeing posts critical of anarchism, it might be better to block this community, or avoid those discussions/posts in Lemmygrad.
"Don't critique what I believe, don't tell me what to dooooooo" is like a fortress of rhetorical immunity for some people, as long as they complain loud enough about how everyone else is bad and that they're "disappointed" in them.
Y'all aren't critizing idoleogy y'all are just calling me a lib or an angry teenager...
This comment once again has no real critique. Am I not allowed to complain?
Y'all didn't either. From the start this was "you guys suck how dare you criticize what I believe" posting.
I am not even sure you have an examined and understood ideology at this point, just vibes.
Am I not allowed to complain?
Your hypocrisy is amazing here considering your "y'all" condemnations that are centered on how you don't like your particular takes being complained about.
What anarchist books have you read that you thought were good
What anarchist books have you read that you thought were good
Sarcastically: I'm a bit of an expert on anarchism you see. I once read a meme on r/complete@narchy back in the day
I can deal with post critizing anarchy. I'm just not seeing that. Alls I see are post calling anarchist fake. Or calling them libs. Or calling them angry teenagers.
Soo what it sounds like is there isn't room for anarchist on lemmygrad? Are you willing to share with me some critiques of anarchism that are not based in literal name calling?
Cuz I will read, but I'm not gonna stick around and get called a lib over and over again.
We are calling fake anarchists fake. No one said anarchists as a whole were fake. Why are you taking this personally. All the way from the title (self styled “anarchists”) it should’ve been clear it was criticizing a specific type of person laying false claim to the ideology of anarchism, not the whole.
OK but these are the only posts I see on here regarding anarchy. I see pretty Much "anarkiddys" And things like "anarchist just wanna be petty Bourgeoisie". Or memes just talking trash.
(self styled “anarchists”) it should’ve been clear
This alone doesn't convey that there are accept able forms of anarchy on this community. Its just bashing.
No it doesn’t, I don’t know why you interpret it that way. Suggesting someone we don’t like has illegitimate claim to an ideology suggests someone we like has legitimate claim to it. Imagine Alex Jones says “these “conservatives” in the White House are evil,” it should be clear he likes conservatism but thinks neocons have an illegitimate claim to it.
Suggesting someone we don’t like has illegitimate claim to an ideology suggests someone we like has legitimate claim to it.
I guess... Although I'm a little confused.
Imagine Alex Jones says “these “conservatives” in the white are evil,”
But this is different than the OP. This clearly differentiates a sub group. The conservatives in white
If I said these "conservatives" are full of shit. It kinda critizes the term "conservative" as well. And those who call themselves that.
Once again, while I see your point. I still haven't seen a earnest critique of anarchy on this community. Maybe you can link one?
For good critiques I’d suggest State and Revolution by Lenin, parts of Gramsci’s writing (listen to Marx Madness podcast), some of Huey’s writings, and Stalin’s Anarchism or socialism (a bit harsh, but gets the point across), among others in this thread.
One thing which always struck me from Marx's critiques of the Paris commune- that the various sections didn't come to the aid of eachother, and allowed the whole revolution to be defeated in detail. Some of the most cutting critiques anarchists have of AES states have been pretty much of exactly that mistake being repeated- it just played out on the scale of nations rather than within a city.
Thank you for the recommendation.
Soo what it sounds like is there isn't room for anarchist on lemmygrad?
Again, Lemmygrad and Hexbear are different websites with different rules.
If you're interested in being accepted as an anarchist, Hexbear would be more welcoming.
Are you willing to share with me some critiques of anarchism that are not based in literal name calling?
I'm not responding to you to argue with you, I'm trying to help you have a less frustrating lemmy experience.
I'm not responding to you to argue with you, I'm trying to help you have a less frustrating lemmy experience.
I see. Thanks.
Are you talking about when y'all openly bash anarchist?
Y'all honestly make me so sad.
Yall are a fuckin disappointment.
Only you are allowed to make blanket statements about other ideologies. Only you.
Your comment has no real critique of my ideology.
When you make one besides your "you all suck, but you're not allowed to stereotype me based on my hot takes" take, maybe. Not looking good so far.
My critique of this community is there no room for anarchist here of any kind.
Which i stated above.
My critique of this community is there no room for anarchist here of any kind.
of any kind
I don't think you speak for the entirety of anarchism. Your version of it hasn't yet presented anything here except "you guys suck" and "how dare you criticize what I believe" hypocrisy takes.
I'm fairly sure there are several well respected anarchists on Lemmygrad.
You seem to be making a judgement based on one post, which you seem to have interpreted to mean something very different to what I thought it was saying. It comes off a little bit wrecker tbh, considering the 'anarchist' in the op is clearly qualified.
If you did want an ML critique of anarchism, you could try: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Anarchism_or_socialism%3F
We’re calling libs who call themselves “anarchists” libs. Most of us have not condemned all anarchists.
The post was about “Self-styled ‘anarchists’”, as opposed to actual anarchists, and it seems you’re putting yourself in that category and then complaining that OP put you there.
I will paste this old comment of mine to see what real anarchists like yourself think about it, I may have conflated anarchists with anti-authoritarians, so correct me if I'm wrong:
Anti-authoritarians have no future, one either supports an existing authority or tries to become a new authority. Everyone can have a say in a democracy, but when it comes down to decision, whether through majority vote or expert opinion or other methods, the decision then becomes authority.
Even if someone claims to hate all forms of authority, this person will become the authority on “hating authority” if a following is gained. That’s how anarchists are doomed for failure.
Even if someone claims to hate all forms of authority
this is not what anarchists claim
read theory, then come back with a coherent comment
It actually is what a lot of anarchists claim, those who have not read theory at least. I will make no generalizations about all anarchists especially without reading the specific theory, but there is a certain type of the online “anarkiddie” which I’ve seen many times.
this is like judging MLs by random fascist youtube commenters who think stalin killed 100 bajillion people and that was based
More like judging all USian MLs by patsocs who are sadly way too common. Settlers don’t want to lose the land they stole even if it’s necessary like anarkiddies don’t want to give up their petty bourgeois lifestyle to do praxis. Also, similarly as these anarchists don’t question the anti-communism programmed into them, patsocs don’t question myths about “American greatness” or that fast food workers and natives are worthless.
I will gladly comment on this.
Anarchist are anti-hierarchy. Authority is usually hierarchically designed and implemented. And thus we as anarchists condem it.
This statement ignores other forms of power. Like non-hierarchical power structures. Mutual aid groups and community self defense. These and many other forms of direct action do not require authority or hierarchy to be powerful.
We can be powerful, productive and non-hierarchical. We can have groups of people working together solving problems without bosses, masters, cops etc.
Are rules required for anarchism to function, and if they are, can these rules be viewed as an abstract authority commanding the anarchist community?
How does commumity self defense not require authority? They're certainly imposing their authority on whatever they're defending themselves from.
Someone who is attacking you is attempting to enforce a hierarchy/authority on you. Defending yourself is rejecting that hierarchy/authority. If you were to attack back, then I would say you were trying to impose your authority on another. But self defense alone only brings one back to equal footing, where neither party has authority over the other.
That is a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here links On Authority to try and debunk you, but (and this is an unpopular opinion on this instance) it's a garbage argument that projects the fallacy Engles is making onto the anti authoritarians, namely using a definition of authority different from the one anyone actually cares about. It is Engles who "...think[s] that when [he has] changed the names of things [he has] changed the things themselves".
Easy there. Are you against revolutionary violence? If not, then he's not talking about you.
Maybe. But there way too much of this kind of rhetoric on the site for me to look at this and say "oh he's not talking about me, I'm one of the good ones"
If I felt like there was more differentiation between what was an "acceptable" anarchist and just libs with the "anarchy" label. That would be one thing. But I don't see people saying anarchy is OK.
Just mostly people bashing anarchists.....
You have entered a Marxist community, not an anarchist community. Members of this community are expressing their frustration with the ever-growing swaths of anticommunist and antirevolutionary liberals who describe themselves as anarchists, but who have little to no actual engagement with anarchist ideology. They have expressed that this frustration is derived from these people's refusal to read theory and to educate themselves on the history of anarchism. They are not criticising anarchist ideology, they are criticising people who claim they are anarchists but refuse to actually learn anything about anarchism.
You are making broad, sweeping statements condemning the Marxists in this community for their beliefs, and seem to be reading their frustrations as personal attacks and attacks on anarchism. Perhaps you should re-examine your standpoint here and go read some elementary anarchist and leftist theory. Here are some recommendations:
Anarchism and Other Essays by Emma Goldman
Principles of Communism by Friedrich Engels
An Anarchist Programme by Errico Malatesta
These are all good recs (especially
), but please, don't tell me to Google Murray Bookchin. It's been ten years.I'm so tired.
but please, don’t tell me to Google Murray Bookchin. It’s been ten years.
Damn, just agreeing with all the cringiest people. I read the section of his book (post scarcity anarchism) called “listen Marxist” and was hoping there would be something worth listening. Unfortunately, all he says is basically Marxism’s old so we should ignore it and also evil vanguardists stole credit for the revolution and did evil stuff instead of pressing the communism button. I always hope to find something interesting to think about in anti-communist arguments, but they rarely say anything new.
That being said, there's merit to the idea that lockstep dogmatism to a 175 year old definition of a political model isn't necessarily a successful model for any given present day era.
This is why I'm wary of "read theory." Sure, read theory, but don't treat it like a Bible. Expand, adapt, update, adjust.
Besides, like all science, theory should be reproducible without need for the text. Theory after all means "best guess," and it's supposed to be vulnerable to new realities and discoveries.
Every communist should be familiar with the core philosophy and principles of Marxist analysis. That information and methodology is very hard to just naturally luck into without reading the theory -- especially if you grew up in a sea of liberalism.
Our adherance to past principles of organizing needs to be dynamic and not dogmatic though.
That being said, there’s merit to the idea that lockstep dogmatism to a 175 year old definition of a political model isn’t necessarily a successful model for any given present day era.
Theory is useful to learn how to figure out what to do. Some of Marx's predictions ended up being wrong, most notably his prediction that the already industrialized countries would be first to revolution. However, his work on how to understand how society works and how to change it isn't outdated. To make an analogy, any scientific theory may be proven wrong, but the scientific method will always remain a valid tool for understanding the world.
This is why I’m wary of “read theory.” Sure, read theory, but don’t treat it like a Bible. Expand, adapt, update, adjust.
Coincidentally enough, there is theory about this very issue. Dogmatically following theory when it is not applicable to your material conditions is a problem Marxists regularly grasp with.
True, there is a great danger in dogmatism. That’s why Marxists emphasize the scientific and changing nature of our worldview. “Read theory” shouldn’t mean “just read Marx and Lenin” it means you should also read Mao, Amin, Horne, and so on. Read it critically, notice changes, notice contradictions and consider different perspectives.
Bookchin argues we toss out Marxism as a whole because not everything Marx says can have held up. However, Marxists recognize that and critique and change the theory. We adapt to our conditions. Bookchin denies the method of proletarian revolution which we still uphold because we see it worked. He does not see it worked because he accepts the anti-communist alternative history.
I'm not telling you or people in general to read theory, I'm telling chucklehead over there to read some, because based on his posting I sincerely doubt he ever has. Dude claimed he was opening his anticommunism blinders less than two weeks ago, then fell ass-backwards into lemmygrad's infighting community and decided to go to war using a balloon sword.
Just mostly people bashing anarchists.....
Y'all honestly make me so sad.
Yall are a fuckin disappointment.
Specifically the dictatorship of the proletariat,
Can you tell me what you think this means without looking it up to have the "correct" answer?
I agree with you but I'm too tired to properly articulate it right now (though be aware that this is a lemmygrad thread, and they don't have anti sectarian rules like hexbear does)
we kind of do (have an anti-sectarian rule), it's just a stricter definition (i.e. it definitely doesn't apply to anarchists and probably not trots/MLM). Think about it this way, we MLs have very few places to congregate in the english speaking side of the internet, so my feeling is that we're pretty protective of it. Like ffs, before we were federated with hexbear we were alone in the jihad against the libs in the lemmyverse, the only other "leftists" servers that I know of (midwest and dbzero) defederated us, that's part of why we're so hostile towards anarchists imo (apart from ideological differences since we're an ML instance).
There’s a place for anarchist visitors on Lemmygrad, but note we are in the leftist infighting community so that would explain why hating on anarchists is allowed.
I appreciate it. I don't mind people having discourse with me. I'm just tired of being called:
A lib An angry teenager. An anarkiddie
Etc.
Oh no guys, hear that? They're packing their stuff and leaving! Fuck this is a disaster, the site's ruined. I might as well quit too. We should've been nicer to hormonal 16-year-olds who scold us
Hexbear>lemmygrad>the rest of lemmy
The real leftist infighting.