3d ago

Finland | Minister: "Burkas and niqabs are not suitable for school"

Minister: "Burkas and niqabs are not suitable for school"

A debate is erupting around Islamic face coverings in Finland's educational institutions.

Archived version: https://archive.is/20250813123725/https://yle.fi/a/74-20177195

Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.

63 comments

Good. Fuck religious indoctrination among the kids.
- Agreed, and this goes for any religion that does it. But what really grinds my gears about (other) leftists defending this kind of religious expression is, this isn't something women choose. They're forced to and groomed from young age to cover themselves. Meanwhile, their brothers, fathers, sons all walk around free to wear shorts, t-shirts, etc. If men had to cover themselves the same way, then sure, at least there would be some level of equality. This is just plain old misogyny that has no place in modern societies.
  However, with that said, there's a real possibility banning head coverings would ultimately hurt girls, instead of helping them. Good education and financial independence and stability in adulthood would give these girls a better and safer way to escape. Like with any other societal problem, it's complex and can't be simply "magiced" away.
  
  But what really grinds my gears about (other) leftists defending this kind of religious expression is, this isn't something women choose.
  How do you know that?
  They're forced to and groomed from young age to cover themselves.
  That's... kind of how all parenting works? You could legit say "they're forced to and groomed from young age to X" and replace X with anything you want and it'll work so you're not really saying much.
  This is just plain old misogyny that has no place in modern societies.
  Yeah here's the thing: Freedom of conscience means freedom of conscience, even when you don't like that conscience. If misogyny is reason enough for you to take a sledgehammer to this core pillar of democratic society then go ahead, but know that fascists can use that same sledgehammer against whatever beliefs you have that they don't like.
- It gets even worse, once the 'gods chosen people' and 'dirty heathens' discussions start. Kids have no filter. I'm speaking of all abrahamic religions and a a good chunk of everything else.
  
  God sure does enact genocides on his "chosen people" quite often. I guess religious nuts sometimes forget what they're chosen for lol.
  
  Kids have no filter
  Yeah, they'll even repeat your username!
  Edit: I love that @fxomt hates my arguments so much they even downvoted my private joke with no idea what it means
- I think that's a misinterpretation of the concepts of Freedom of Religion and Laicity (freedom from religion).
  In the French understanding, laicity means that no representative of the State is allowed to show their religion, or treat people differently according to their religion / political orientation. Traditionally it even extended further : for example teachers would refrain from exposing their religion / political views because they recognized the influence they held on their community, and that being outspoken is unfair to those who do not share those views.
  That being said, the Burqa laws are an attempt to place that burden on the users of the services of the State. It's pretty toxic because they should be served equally, which obviously they can't be when you write laws that target one specific group over others.
  The attempt to place the blame on parents is equally toxic. You have the freedom to raise your kids the way you see fit : having a conscience is not illegal. If that leads them to do illegal stuff, well that's when the law comes in, but not before.
  It's all fun and games until the next fascist administration uses the same Burqa laws to prohibit whatever you hold dear.
  
  It's all fun and games until the next fascist administration uses the same Burqa laws to prohibit whatever you hold dear.
  Yeah, next they'll be saying something like "kids shouldn't bring life-like replica guns to school" or something equally authoritarian.
  The horror.
- And you'll solve that by telling them they can't dress the way they want? How does that work, exactly?
  
  You think the kids are the ones insisting they want to be covered up? It's the parents who are doing it. Take that ability away from the parents and the kids DGAF
  
  In the previous comment I was replying to you in this post, you were just asking someone how would you know what they want to wear?
  Try wearing a burka for a day and report back how you like it.
  But they are allowed to wear whatever they want — within reason. You have to cover your genitals at least, that's usually a minimum. And you're not allowed to cover your entire face. Between those two rules, I'm sure you can come up with something you'll like.
  Hijabs are still completely fine, btw.
  Those are the ones that a cultural argument can be made for and I definitely see how one can also definitely want to wear them. But burka or niqab? C'mon who are you lying to?
I always love the irony when people worry that others are being dictated on how to dress so they then themselves dictate to people how they can dress.
- I always love the irony when people making such comments are unable to understand that setting SOME dressing rules in schools and working places is absolutely NOT the same as the dictation of wearing distinct clothing anytime and anywhere. The latter has far bigger restrictive impact on your freedom of expression.
This is pure and simple Islamophobia and racism. Their head dressings do not detract from anyone's learning including their own. This is like banning hair dye because it might "disturb and distract" other students. Bullshit.
This puts a lot of pressure on Muslim girls and places them in a further disadvantaged position compared to not only Christians, but even to Muslim boys.
Also, while Finnish schools are expected maintain confessional neutrality, display of a cross somehow doesn't count.
Fuck religion. Embrace personal experience over dogmatic teachings.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools
Every finn should get an emotional support burka.
Freedom of religion until we don't like it.
- Why should there be freedom of religion any more? What does religion do?
  
  Why should a state be allowed to dictate what people believe?
  
  Because freedom of religion is pretty much just a special case of freedom of thought and conscience? Unless you want the state to use its monopoly on violence to punish people for wrongthink, freedom of religion is here to stay.
  
  Why should there be freedom of religion any more?
  This is an argument that will lead to you being forced into being a christian.
  
  What do you have in mind? Maybe we should start rounding up people for having the wrong belief
I feel like a lot of comments here suffers from The Paradox of Tolerance.
This is about a minister setting down their foot on what degree of tolerance outside of cultural and societal norms this country should have. Just like any other country. Look at for example at Afghanistan, Japan, and Estonia - are they any different? Better or worse?
- That's not what the paradox of tolerance is. The paradox of tolerance, according to your own link, is that tolerating intolerant ideas allows them to thrive and expand until they enforce their intolerance on everyone else. Unless you think that allowing girls to wear burkas will lead to Finland becoming a caliphate, the paradox of tolerance doesn't apply. Also, in typical Westerner fashion, you completely ignored the impact of colonial meddling in your example choices.
The minister is a bigot and racist.
- Your profile says "religion is cancer" yet you seem fine with forcing women to cover their faces because their religion mandates it and their father/husband doesn't want other men seeing them.
  
  I disagree with religion but I still think people should have the freedom to follow one.
  
  Who said I’m fine forcing women to do anything? Some women make the choice to wear religious clothing. I’m for the individual choice to do whatever you want with your own body as long as it doesn’t directly affect someone else’s.
  
  Okay imagine you move somewhere where all the guys go outside with their dicks out, but you don't want to because you were raised to think your dick should be covered. Even without somebody explicitly forcing you to cover your dick, you'll still instinctively want to do it because it's a deeply held cultural taboo to go outside with your dick out, especially if you're part of an immigrant community that still covers their dicks. Now imagine that your school says you have to go to school with your dick out even if you feel uncomfortable with it.
  Yes, the requirement for Muslim women to cover their hair is rooted in and perpetuated by misogyny, but ideas about modesty and decency don't just disappear overnight and it's kind of unfair for western societies to put girls in ththat position.

63 comments