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Ada @lemmy.blahaj.zone

Neopronouns are not trolling

I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

247 comments

  • Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.

    Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.

    Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.

    • questopm for coskii: i has 3 character name, would coskii pick to using just max or he hims orboth meows? a lso woild coskii use they thems for max ? (like if didnt know max preferres hehims)

      • For Max, I would use he/hims, they/thems, or whatever other pronouns Max would prefer. Max is a shortcut in and of itself. Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxine, or Maximus can all be Max.

        If Max were to decide that Maxs' pronouns were Maxillaries/Maximilleficint, I would at that point likely just refer to Max as Max. As at that point I feel that what has been made are no longer pronouns, but situational proper nouns.

        By a much more extreme example, if Max has a flowchart/spreadsheet of pronouns that are time/date sensative, such as changing pronouns according to the current astrological sign + day of the week/phase of the moon, Max is being called Max.

  • i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that

    it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that

    • this exactly, there are already rules against trolling, and for the trolls who haven't tipped their hand yet, the block button works great; one reason for this kind of trolling can be to incite division that gatekeeping rules would create - blocking a troll until they show their hand feels like a small price to pay to avoid that, and I'm proud of admins that are wise enough to understand this

  • I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)

    • I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn't make that person my god, and I shouldn't be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don't follow. I may choose to follow other religions' conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person's pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.

      • I don't think using someone's preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.

        I've met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I've also met people who think "he" and "she" pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone's god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say "My god doesn't make mistakes", and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.

    • Your last point raises a good question.

      Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don't capitalise Them?

  • Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.

    You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they're not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.

    Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.

  • Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?

    A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.

    We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:

    Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch

    In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)

    In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?

    In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?

    When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.

    • You don't need to use any pronouns to block and report.

    • In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise?

      If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don't interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn't for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.

      But even "attack helicopter" and the like... If you're not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn't a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.

      So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn't a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.

  • For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.

    We could:

    1. Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
    2. Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users

    Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.

  • Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!

    Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.

  • Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.

    Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.

  • As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.

    I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.

    Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

    • is there a definitive list of pronouns?

      No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.

      I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told

      This is a good strategy :)

      once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts

      This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135

      how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

      Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.

    • is there a definitive list of pronouns

      Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It's just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They're essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what's considered women's work (cooking) and men's work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.

      Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

      When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You're right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You're unfortunately entirely correct that it's a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that's its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don't use it online, the they effectively don't get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It's out of desperation to be validated in some way. It's a bummer, but I get it. I'm lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don't use my name online. But I'm absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.

    • You sound like you've got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It's not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you're not actively being a dickhead you probably don't have too much to worry about on that front.

  • My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they've caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).

    • The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.

    • I'm in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.

    • and admins not doing enough

      perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought cough

  • 100%.

    You don't get to decide if another person's identity is valid or not. That's literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they're called and how to correctly refer to them.

  • take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙

    and it's another reason why i love it here 💞

  • My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I'm telling the world that it's okay to dismiss anyone's identity given the right justification. And that's patently wrong and shitty.

    I'd rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.

247 comments