The message to Democrats is clear: you must dump neoliberal economics
The party must return to its progressive roots. A new economy is needed with new rules and new roles
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Buddy, you're proving mine. If Bernie's loss in the primary is proof that Americans aren't that progressive, then Harris and Hillary's losses in the general prove that Americans aren't that centrist. You can't have it both ways.
So that would mean that the majority of the electorate is far-right, which would make no sense given how strongly progressive ballot measures overperformed against the Harris campaign, or why Bernie polled more favorably against Trump than Clinton or Biden. Somehow, Americans would have disliked centrist and progressive politicians and like far-right politicians, but for some reason prefer progressive policies, and also favor the most high profile progressive in the Senate...or, Occam's Razor, people prefer progressives, but the Democrats keep rat-fucking them in the primaries in favor of centrists.
Harris and Hillary's losses in the general prove that Americans aren't that centrist.
Expect Trump took the center voters. I think we all see through him, but the center voter loves him for economy and jobs.
I'm sorry, but I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Harris ran to the center, Trump ran to the far-right. If people who consider themselves moderate or centrist voted for him, that just indicates that even people who think of themselves as being in the middle politically aren't interested in the Democrats centrism anymore. Anyway, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just not sure where you're coming from here.
Trump ran to the far-right
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
We can bemoan that people should be smarter to see through the BS (and I think most people on lemmy can see through it), but people aren't and Trump won the center voter.
Trump did a better job appealing to the center than Harris did. Harris relied on the left showing up for abortion rights and for democracy, and they didn't show up.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
These aren't centrist issues, these are just...issues. Like, jobs isn't left, right, or center. It's just something that matters to people. But trying to solve it by deporting 13 million people is far right.
These aren't centrist issues, these are just...issues.
.... Which means they are issued that the center cares about.
Like, jobs isn't left, right, or center. It's just something that matters to people.
Seriously? You walked around the whole thing to (kinda) say they aren't center issues, just to return to say they are issues that appeal to the center. They don't need to be exclusively center issues. It just needs to win the center voter.
It's an issue that the center is glued to and that the center wants and that the center voted for. So yes, Trump appealed to the center. And he won because he got the center voter. Yes Trump also appealed to the far right via what really aren't even dog whistles anymore. But he also appealed up the center. And the center is how he won.
Like c'mon how many different ways do I have to put it to say that he appealed to the center, got the center voter, and won because of the center voters.
I...I don't really know what to say to this, dude. You're just declaring things are, "center." Like...jobs, inflation, and manufacturing are issues, but they're not on a political spectrum. They're usually seen as working class issues, since the loss of American manufacturing, increasing prices, and unemployment and low wages (assuming that's what you mean by, "jobs,") usually hurt the working class, but that doesn't make them inherently right or left wing, and the lack of a political orientation doesn't mean they're, "center."
Like, take manufacturing jobs. You can approach that from a left-wing position, and say that we need harsh tax penalties for companies that ship jobs overseas, or take a right-wing position, and say we need to deregulate manufacturing to make U.S. manufacturing cost less. A centrist position would probably look like tax-credits for companies that manufacture in the U.S. But when you say manufacturing is centrist, I have no idea what that means.
they’re not on a political spectrum.
Again? Seriously? It does not need to be mutually exclusive. Do you know what I mean by that? Yes jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc is not exclusively left, it's not exclusively center, and it's not exclusively right. WE AGREE ON THAT. JFC.
BUT those are the issues that won Trump the center voter. Those are the issues that convinced the center voter to vote for Trump. And that's how Trump won, by getting the center voter. By appealing to the center voter on jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc. Trump did that better than Harris on the center voter. I'm trying all the different ways to say this and I'm just repeating myself.
OK, I get it now. You're conflating people in the political center with centrism. People who consider themselves politically centrist may have voted for Trump because they liked his message in jobs and manufacturing, but it was not a centrist message. It was a far right message that included blaming immigrants for job losses and promoting isolationist trade policies. By comparison, Harris had a centrist policy of tax credits for small businesses, and that did not appeal to people who consider themselves the political center.
So, when I said, "Harris and Hillary's losses in the general prove that Americans aren't that centrist," I mean that people are rejecting centrist policy measures. It has nothing to do with people in the center voting for him.
but it was not a centrist message. It was a far right message that included blaming immigrants for job losses and promoting isolationist trade policies.
JFC Trump did both. I said this at the start.
First. He did the centrist message. Jobs, wages, inflation. Ok? Those are the messages that the center voted for Trump on.
Ok second. This is second. Separate from the first point. Second: He did a thinly veiled dog whistle to blame immigrants for everything. And everything I already said: yes it's so overt that it's not even a dog whistle anymore. And I already yes certain center voters should have seen through it. And that we on Lemmy can generally see through that, but apparently many people can't. Like I said it all already.
So. What won Trump the election? What part pushed him over the edge to win? I'm saying it was the center voter. The center voter that voted for Trump because Trump appealed to the center voter on issues like jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc. Those are the issues that the center cares about. And Trump appealed to them more on those issues than Harris appealed to them. JFC. How many times do I have to say the same thing.
Small business? Sounds good in theory but how many voters run a small business? Not enough. It has no appeal for the 99.9% of center voters that just work a standard job. You know what does appeal to the center voter? What Trump says about jobs, inflation, manufacturing. And we're right back to the start.
First. He did the centrist message. Jobs, wages, inflation. Ok? Those are the messages that the center voted for Trump on.
What in the Dunning-Kruger are you talking about? "Jobs, wages, inflation," isn't a fucking message, dude. It's just three issues that you are assigning to moderates (I'm gonna start using, "moderates," for voters in the political center, maybe that will help you, because you seem really confused). Maybe moderates claimed those were their biggest issues this cycle, but that doesn't mean talking about them is, "doing the centrist message."
Do you get the difference between an issue and a message? "Guns," is an issue. A message is what you want to do about that issue. Gun control is considered a left wing message. Expanding gun rights is considered right wing. Modest regulations surrounding gun ownership is considered centrist. Do you see how saying, "He did the centrist message," and then naming issues instead a message is fucking incoherent? Are you starting to understand the difference between talking about an issue that's important to moderates and having a centrist message?
What won Trump the election? What part pushed him over the edge to win? I'm saying it was the center voter.
Oh my fucking God dude, no one's disagreeing. It's just not relevant to anything I was saying in the thread up until the point where you interjected. I was talking about centrist platforms being unpopular with the electorate, and you're talking about Trump winning voters who consider themselves moderate. Do you get how those are two different things?
The first thing, the one I was talking about, is the centrist message the Democrats ran on. Ok second. This is second. Separate from the first point, is what you were talking about, which is how moderates voted this election. Do you see how those are different things? Do you see that I'm talking about policy and you're talking about voter blocks? Do you get the difference yet?
Small business? Sounds good in theory but how many voters run a small business? Not enough. It has no appeal for the 99.9% of center voters that just work a standard job.
THIS IS LITERALLY MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT DUDE. It was a centrist policy! It's a policy that didn't go too far left or too far right. I agree that this centrist policy didn't appeal to moderates; it didn't appeal to anybody! That's what I was literally saying in the comment you decided to jump in on.
You know what does appeal to the center voter? What Trump says about jobs, inflation, manufacturing. And we're right back to the start
Yeah dude, and what did he say about those things? Not the issue, the message. Was it that American jobs were being stolen by migrants? Was it that manufacturing losses were the result of globalization, and that aggressive tariffs would fix that? Was it that reckless government spending through the American Rescue Plan was caused inflation? Do you see that, even if those issues matter to moderates, the message isn't centrist, it's far-right? Is any of this getting through to you?
I mean, Jesus Fucking Christ dude, I was trying to be nice at first, but Jesus Fucking Christ. It's bad enough that you wasted this much fucking time because you couldn't figure out the difference between moderate voters and centrist policies, but to actually be this condescending while you fumble around with terms you don't understand is fucking unreal.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
It sounds like you're just making up justifications for the party not moving to the left in the future.
Every time they rely on the left they lose. Like we just saw that. They relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and to save mfing democracy and they couldn't even do that.
You seem to have confused "relying on the left" with "taking the left for granted and moving to the right." Which is what they did, why they lost, and the only thing you want them to ever do.
If capable they would have passed abortion law, that is not "taking the left for granted and moving to the right" lol.
And I see you're still on your strawman lol. See other reply.
If capable they would have passed abortion law
Sure they would have. Like the last two times they had a majority and didn't fucking feel like it.
You mean the last 4 months they had in the last 44+ years? Which Obama used to get the ACA through. I barely blame him for that.
BUT that wasn't even the point, which you're ducking. You said take the left for granted and don't offer them anything. Well they literally didn't, and they literally offered them exactly what they wanted. And the left didn't show up.
You mean the last 4 months they had in the last 44+ years?
The 4 mOnThS they also were happy to use to bail out wall street? Those 4 months?
And they also had a majority for the first two years of Biden's term. They had enough seats to kill the filibuster forever and protect Roe. They chose not to. Now make more excuses. Maybe the sun was in their eyes. Their dog ate the bill.
You said take the left for granted and don’t offer them anything.
I said they take the left for granted and move to the right. I didn't say they didn't offer anything. You know what you call it when you make up someone's opinion, knock it down, and then declare victory? IT'S A FUCKING STRAWMAN, you insufferable giant hypocrite.
And as for what they "offered," it was shit they "offered" multiple times in the past and kept conveniently getting in their own way. Do that enough, you lose credibility.
Clearly the answer is to run to the right of Trump. It's not like you don't want to.
Lol still on your strawman huh.
You know you remind me of a conversation I had with someone else. I told him that I wanted environmental policy, but that environmental platforms didn't win elections. He couldn't comprehend separating those out. To him you had to think that environmental policy was good and think it won elections. Or if you said environmental policy didn't win elections, well to him that meant you personally didn't want environmental policies. He had to group those two together. He was literally unable to separate them out. Well that's exactly like you, just on different issues.
Do tell, then. What wins elections? How do you intend to rephrase "just move to the right"?
No response huh! Just (effectively) more strawman. Well think about it. At least try to break that "AND" operator you insist on other people.
What, in your estimation, can Democrats do to win elections, and how does it differ from "just move to the right"?
See? You're still on your strawman, just in a different manner. You tried this before too.
You want to pigeonhole me into saying drop policy this or that so that you can complete your strawman to think that I personally want ___ platform. You're playing games.
No real discussion can ever be had with you while you insist on your "AND" operator. At least try to break it.
You want to pigeonhole me into saying drop policy this or that so that you can complete your strawman to think that I personally want ___ platform. You’re playing games.
No. I want you to state a position about what you think it takes to win elections.
No real discussion can ever be had with you while you insist on your “AND” operator. At least try to break it.
Are you under the impression that repeating this will make it make sense?
It makes perfect sense when you realize places like Missouri and Florida voted for abortion rights yet also voted for Republicans and trump all over too.
And again, there's no big magical force keeping progressives out of winning primaries. They just don't. So again, my point, either people aren't that progressive or progressives fucking suck at voting. Either way, same result.
Moreover, we'll use your metric of progressive policies winning over Harris and analyze why she won more over Bernie himself. Must mean people are more moderate right?
And again, if that's the case, then centrists are even suckier at voting, because they keep fucking losing even harder. And it still doesn't explain when progressive preform so much better in elections where Democrats can't put their thumb on the scales for centrists.
