[DISCUSSION] In TNG's "The Most Toys" (s3e22), did Data lie about firing the disruptor?

Absolutely. Rewatching the series in full as an adult made it more apparent that Data was always closer to his goal than he could comprehend. Just had trouble adjusting to social "norms" more than others.

Yup exactly. He just lacked emotional subroutines (at first) and the hardware to process that. But he doesn't need emotions to kill. He is in fact capable of using lethal force (First Contact), he just has an ethical subroutine that prevents killing (Descent I, II) unless in defense of others, himself, or The Federation. Which would fall under his logical subroutines.

Similar in a way to Chief Engineer Hemmer who will not use violence (Memento Mori) unless in an act of preserving life. The means to defend is part of the training of a Starfleet officer.

This is honestly something that kind of annoys me about the show, data is pretty obviously human enough from the get-go, his journey is just about generally figuring things out and forming a proper personality.

Like the episode where they have to put his personhood to trial isn't that amazing, humans now overwhelmingly at least somewhat care about the well-being of actual cattle, how the fuck would a clearly human-looking android that's clearly capable of reasoning not be considered a person just like any other humanoid alien species?

It would have made sense if it took place in humanity's capitalist past, but the largely enlightened federation? come oooooooon

i like that The Orville has their obligatory digital lifeform be from a whole-ass race that considers themselves obviously superior to everyone else, and no one questions their personhood because how the fuck do you question the personhood of someone who is actively choosing not to pulverize you?

O'brien: "Bitches be crazy..."

Data is an Aes Sedai confirmed.

O'Brien deactivated the weapon, so something did happen during transport.

Reminded me of one of the best exchanges between Data and Worf from Gambit Part 2:

This is actually why I kinda liked Pulaski. When she first meets him, she calls bullshit on the idea that he has no emotions. She mispronounces his name, and when Data corrects her, she immediately hones in on that; why should you have a preference if you don't feel anything about it? But people keep telling her that he doesn't have emotions, so she's basically like, "Alright, fine, I'll treat him like a calculator." And honestly, why wouldn't you? If he doesn't have emotions, then why bother with pleasantries? It's not like he's going to get offended. She eventually does come around to him, but she does that by basically coming to the conclusion that he does care, given his actions during that episode with the children and the aging disease (I don't remember the name and I'm too lazy to look it up).

It was always very clear to me that Data had emotions. How could he not? He has desires, wants, preferences...you can't have those things without feeling something. It just seems like they're very distant, numb feelings, rather than strong sensations. And it kinda makes sense to build him that way; Lore was created with much more advanced emotions, and he's a little psychotic. It makes more sense to have his feelings be slightly out of reach and let them grow with his positronic brain, so he can learn to handle them over time.

I never liked the, "emotion chip," solution to Data's feelings. It seems like they never explored his emotional development because they didn't want to make any status quo changes on a mostly episode-of-the-week show. Then they created an emotion McGuffin they never intended to use and said, "fuck it, let's use it for the movie!" But in the end, I believe we were always meant to think the same thing about Data as we were about Spock: "I know this guy says he doesn't have emotions, but I think he's full of shit."

Riker didn't actually ask a question, he just made a statement.

The glancing look in question:

Data is typically straightforward and matter-of-fact with his responses. This one seems a little more "human" as it were. He'd rather redirect than answer.

Summoned, I take the place that has been prepared for me.

My thoughts from the other thread:

He spent the entire episode of peacefully resisting but refusing to harm another sentient being, even to free himself. He values life to such an extent that he won't take it unless there is no other option, and he had all the time in the world to attempt to escape.

But Fajo changes the equation when he not only murders someone in cold blood, but makes clear that he will do it again and again if that's what it takes to get what he wants out of Data. In this situation, Data unemotionally, logically determines that the only moral course of action is to kill him. Not in the heat of the moment, not in immediate self defense, just gunning him down where he stands because he cannot be allowed to continue.

It's a chilling moment, and I love it. I just wish they hadn't felt the need to insert that line about the weapon going off by accident. It comes across as a lie, and I think it undermines the episode a little.

My understanding is that it was executive meddling. Apparently there was some disagreement about that scene and a producer insisted that Data wouldn’t kill someone like that, which sounds good in a vacuum but in context makes no sense. Data’s intentions are pretty clear right before he gets transported out, it’s hard to reconcile his actions leading up to the transport with the idea that he wasn’t willing to pull the trigger.

And it’s not like Data never kills people. He carries a phaser for a reason, it’s part of the job. He doesn’t like it (emotion chip shenanigans aside) but he will do what is necessary.

Which, to bring it back around, is part of why this is such an intense scene. A logical being guided by a moral framework that values life looked upon this man and determined that his death was necessary.

So, did Data lie?

Obviously the way he words his statement is vague enough that you can say it isn't a lie. But even so, I don't think you can take it at face value. He was clearly getting ready to fire, and the episode had made it abundantly clear why he needed to do it, why he was justified in doing it. It's a strange point for the script to get hung up on, because the difference between being interrupted before he can pull the trigger vs being interrupted as he is pulling the trigger is pretty much irrelevant.

While I'm fairly certain the original intent behind putting the line in the episode is to gloss over the fact that Data was going to kill someone, I don't think that's how it comes across. The performances in the scene make it clear that Data is not just flatly denying that he was firing the weapon, nor do Riker and O'Brien take it as a clear statement of fact.

While I'd rather they never put the line in to begin with, we got the episode that we got. And my interpretation would be that what occurred during transport wasn't a weapon malfunction,* but rather a change in the moral calculus. Fajo had to be stopped, and the only way Data could do that was to kill him while he had the chance. As soon as the Enterprise arrived and beamed him out, that all changed. Fajo would be captured and face trial, and Data would face him in the cell without hostility.

Riker asked about the weapon discharge with some concern. He and O'Brien don't know what happened, they don't have the context for the situation. Data knows they can't fully understand what happened based on a simple verbal exchange. I think you could almost take his reply as dismissive, a rejection of the line of thinking that's behind the question. Data will make a full report when the time comes, no need to talk through it all there, and no point in covering it in inadequate detail.

* I would hope that weapons don't just go off at random during transport. Given how often people beam up and down while wearing a holstered weapon that can potentially vaporize someone, I'd imagine that would cause some pretty nasty situations.

I'm sure Data subscribes to the Vulcan logical philosophy of the needs of the many over the few. Vulcans also abhor violence until it becomes a logical necessity, so this applies here. Fajo put Data into a corner where firing had become the only option left, with Data not knowing the Enterprise was coming.

I do wish they had written it differently, although I can't come up with a better line than to just admit his hand was forced. Or just omit him firing, but then it makes the buildup pointless as we never see Data pushed to the limit, or it's left assuming he would never fire. Along with some other things in the episode, it's why it's a middle grade one for me compared to so many others. Good, but not great.

I believe that Data has it in him to make that decision, I'm mostly calling out the ambiguity of the scene as it played out. And yeah, Tony met a gruesome but earned end.

It’s like the end of the Sopranos.

They ran out of film?

We see data blasting baddies all the time