7mo ago

Are the Jedi assholes?

Come to think of it, the Jedi are kinda dicks, they prevented anakin becoming a master despite his obvious talented skills in saber combat and his power in the force.

Not to mention, lore wise they let mundi have relations with his family where as it would've been a kick out for anakin.

Lastly, the jedi were sorta arrogant for thinking that nothing was wrong or that they were perfect despite having literal counterarguments from rebellious masters, Qui Gonn being a good example of somebody smelling the bullshit that the jedi were involved in.

So my fellow sith lords and jedi knights, what say you?

51 comments

He clearly proved that he wasn't ready to be a master - it's not like a martial arts rank that you mostly just get because you're skilled, they also want you to be able to embody the ideals they stand for (flawed as they may be).
They certainly could have trained him better, but that makes them idiots, not assholes. But first and foremost, their most important failure was not detecting that Palpatine was a sith.
Mundi had a special exemption because his species was going extinct, and it was always supposed to be about attachment anyway - it's plausible that Mundi was able to produce offspring without personal attachment. Anakin could never have done it like that.
- Martial arts ranks aren’t even all about skill. Typically getting to a black belt or equivalent is done by skill demonstration but raising ranks after that is more community involvement, school upkeep, teaching, etc.
  
  Same in a modern military.
  People don't get promoted solely because they can shoot well. It's an important metric for the lowest promotions possible, but if you're widely known to be emotionally and morally messed up, you're not making it past lance corporal.
  Go far enough and there is literally a board of people who decide on whether or not you are promotion worthy for entirely subjective reasons. If you throw a tantrum in the meeting like Anakin did, you just proved them right.
- I don’t know if it’s cannon anymore, but mundi definitely didn’t have attachment towards his children.
  He was abusive and completely detached

The Jedi code teaching students that emotions are dangerous, is about as useful as teaching abstinence in sex ed.
Stop teaching people to ignore attachments and focus on dealing with them in a healthy way instead.
- Strictly speaking, it's less like teaching abstinence in sex ed and more like teaching abstinence in a monastery. The Jedi aren't telling this to the general galactic population, they're telling a select group of warrior monk wizard diplomats trained from toddlerhood.
  
  Especially important the context of a universe where feeling too strongly can be a snowball effect to evil for someone entrusted with certain powers.
- Having superpowers powered by emotion is dangerous, and the whole point of Jedi training is to understand and recognize your emotions, so that you don't allow intense emotions to control your actions.
  Anakin did not learn those lessons. Ignoring emotion is the antithesis of Jedi teaching, the entire point is to learn how to deal with them in a healthy way.

i think the fact he was turned so easily proves he shouldnt have been trained to the extent he was. that single failure caused the eventual death of millions
- Yeah, the jedi were wrong, but the facts really point to "they were wrong to be so lenient". Sure, if they'd let him become a master he might have had a bit more loyalty. But anakin was already too enslaved to his emotions, and even if they made him a master and condoned his relationship with padme, something else would be the spark that sideous used to turn him.
  
  He trained from what, 8 years old until 20? They could have taught him to deal with emotions healthily instead of just saying "emotions bad, Jedi good". There's plenty of real-life examples of troubled people becoming healthy with the love and support of their family
  
  add in the fact that palpatine told anakin to execute count dooku when anikan didnt want to, saying its not the jedi way, then later on sees a master jedi decide to execute palpatine. he saw their hypocrisy
- He was turned by the guy who turned Count Dooku, who was already an old man when it happened. Anakin never stood a chance.
- Yeah he should just have turned off, on his mother...
  I'm with OP 😅.
  That's a good plot, but also ridiculous, transposed on a IRL situation.

More than that, they're just stupid.
Here's just one example of dumb Jedi stuff. I just rewatched the prequels and it occurred to me, that Anakin didn't really suddenly turn to the dark side because his mom died. He turned to the dark side because he didn't have any friends to check him when he's being a douche bag... The dude literally has nobody to talk to except for Padma, and he's forbidden from pursuing a romantic relationship with her, which is super frustrating. This is a scenario destined for failure. What he really needs are some friends he can talk to and vent at about his shitty situation.
Here's the weird thing though, remember that scene where Yoda is training a whole class of little padawans? Those padawans at least have a cohort, they have a group they can bond with and lean on as they grow up and continue their training. So if that's the way they run things, where is Anakin's cohort? Why is he isolated? Anakin has a single person as his mentor, boss, teacher, therapist, dad and only friend, that's not really healthy. And when that one person is gone for an extended period, that leaves Anakin with absolutely no support structure and a lot of temptation to make bad choices, this is setting him up for failure. Cause let's be honest, he's a teen, making bad choices is what they do.
- The whole reason they didn't want to train him in the first movie was that he's too old.

Anakin shouldn't have been a master. Being good at fighting doesn't make you a good leader. The Jedi aren't Klingons.

No. "Master" Jedi are in control of their emotions to the point where they don't, for example, genocide a tribe, or kill their secret wife. They also objected to a power hungry politician interfering with their internal operations, and it turns out they were right about both people.
The Jedi failed their duty to the Republic by becoming isolated from the actual people and not addressing the corruption that had overtaken its leadership, partly in their desire to follow proper protocol and an appearance of objectivity, like in allowing slavery to flourish on Tattoine which wasn't in Republic space.
Don't think about that lesson too much.
Also, the thing I hate absolutely the most about Star Wars is that the "fans" don't know shit about Star Wars, and it's not that deep.

i don't think it's so much that they're actually the baddies as it is that they became too dogmatic and process-oriented to be able to do the good that they were trying to do. on the micro scale they were too inflexible with their rules to always do the right thing, and on the macro scale they could bend the rules however they wanted in the name of The Greater Good. protecting the Jedi order so that they could hypothetically do good later was more important than admitting to mistakes and exposing themselves to criticism to do tangible good in the moment. in less words, they meant well and had their heads pretty far up their asses. the Dooku episodes of Tales of the Jedi demonstrate this very well
whether or not this is just the Jedi Order or the larger light-side-user community is up for debate. a lot of people point to the prophecy of balance being brought to the force and say that that required an equal number of Jedi and Sith, and that idea seems to have seeped into Disney canon, but at least originally Lucas seemed to intend for the light side to represent balance and for the dark side to be a corruption of that, in which case the Jedi Order being assholes meant they also weren't really Jedi to begin with
another commente argues that of course they're assholes because they're a religion, but i'd argue that they're assholes because they're an organized religion. if being a Jedi is about harmony with all life and the force, as opposed to using it and abusing it, you can't create Jedi by using and abusing life forms the way a beaurocratic institution invariably does. it's not a coincidence that all of the great Jedi heroes throughout SW are either deviants within or otherwise estranged from the order. standing up for people and doing the right thing almost always involves sticking it to The Man, and the Jedi Order were The Man

I've always considered, seperate to this larger discussion, that the Jedi are saying one thing and believing another uncritically. They want to bring balance to the force... By eliminating the sith.
Balance. A state of equilibrium. Notoriously not very well known for existing in a system where one of two elements has been removed.
"Only a sith deals in absolutes". Complete unthinking hipocracy in the name of the light.
- "You were supposed to bring balance to the force"
  Here's the prophecy:
  Only through sacrifice of many Jedi will the Order cleanse the sin done to the nameless. The danger of the past is not past, but sleeps in an egg. When the egg cracks, it will threaten the galaxy entire. When the Force itself sickens, past and future must split and combine. A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored.
  Ultimate balance in the force really seems like it very well could mean "no more Sith and no more Jedi" to me.
- I think if you only watch the original trilogy, Jedi are the good, pure, saviors of the galaxy and rebels of the established order and the sith are evil overlords who rule by their own design.
  When you watch the original you see how the Jedi appear good and balanced, but over the trilogy become less focused on ruling by laws and more on feelings. Clearly bypassing their own laws as it suits those in charge.
  Subsequent tv series continuously adds to that mindset that the Jedi were flawed, and sometimes outright dangerous.
  I always saw the Jedi assuming the chosen one myth was about the Jedi becoming the absolute rulers so egotistical, they were destined to fail.
  And as flawed as the new trilogy is, it follows that path, leading to Rey becoming a true balanced force user, neither Jedi or sith. And both have seemingly been destroyed otherwise. So Rey is really the chosen one

Jedis are a cult. They want to bring peace but basically hold power and a hierarchical order, and don't plan on questioning it. Funny because that also was an issue of the Sovietic Party.
- AJAB?
  
  All Jedi Are Maclunkey

100%
The Jedi weren't "good" they were the absent of evil and that will never be enough for a just society because evil will exploit it eventually.
- Yeah the point of the prequels was that they weren't innocent. They had grown complacent, and solely focused on tradition instead of thinking about the actual Jedi values. Anakin was right, but didn't know the way to fix it and instead followed the sith.
  
  He didn't follow the Sith so much reject the Jedi as not good so went down the only path to gain power to do the greatest good he could think of: save Padme
  Like, there's obviously real world parrells, but when the "good" option actively prevents people from doing good in the pursuit of perfect balance, some people will go to the side that doesn't care how you use your own personal power. Because you can rationalize that it won't corrupt you.

Well I mean, what did you expect with space samurai?

Being a master isn't just about skill, it's also about wisdom and experience, perhaps even more than skill. It's perfectly reasonable that they wouldn't want to elevate him to that rank yet, given his behavior.
- +++ They fucked up many things during the clone wars/prequel period of time, and suffered from hubris and arrogance no doubt. But they were right about that one thing.

The Jedi order is 15% vague Eastern Philosophy that George Lucas half-remembered. 75% of cannon events trying to ret-con this philosophy into the media. And 10% of fan wishful thinking.
They barely do anything in the prequels to give motive to Anikin's rebellion. The only times it's seriously covered in the Disney cannon is a few episodes of Clone Wars where the council abandons Asoka, and some plot-lines that were teased in a canceled show.
- The Clone Wars was before Disney. But yes.

yea, the jedi were ideological conservatives.
and that meme where Qui-Gon jinn brings back both Anakin and his mom instead of just Anakin?
is a very legitimate point.
the Jedi council chose to keep a jedi's mother in slavery instead of reuniting their family, freedom which would have come at a truly insignificant cost to the council.
- If you want to get all philosophical (which is probably a bit too far, it's George Lucas after all), you could make the argument that the downfall of the Republic is an example of a complacent, non-responsive governmental elite failing to react or even just recognize obvious problems.
  The Jedi are just warrior monks and symptomatic for that. They didn't bring her with them, because they don't care about people that much. They are above the population and act more like demigods.
  
  this is exactly my argument.
  I completely agree with everything you've written and I even suspect George does, despite his disinclination to discuss it.
  a complacent aristocracy hoisted by their own failing traditions and impotent bureaucracy.

Not to mention the Jedi take younglings for training while the Sith simply wait for them to make a choice.

Everyone in that story is basically an asshole.
They're all somewhat sympathetic. But yeah, the Sith suck, but so do the Jedi. This was also kind of emphasized in the Acolyte. But even before that, yeah, if you look at the prequels the Jedi were kind of dicks.

They're a religion, of course they're assholes.

In a way, they did cause the fall of their own order just because they had bad vibes about Anakin instead of actually guiding him to not turn out the way they sensed. Seems a bit dickish to shun a dude just because the possibility that he turns out evil instead of, you know, teaching him not to be evil.
Luke ends up doing the same damn thing in the sequels. Scares the fuck outta his nephew which drives him to evil all because he had an intrusive thought and pulled out his lightsaber.
Somehow the entirety of the most messed up shit in the movies boils down to overreactions to perceived threats, while the very real threat sits back and consolidates power.

According to this ancient documentary... Yes. Yes they are.

Well if it’s like real life yes. Everyone is an asshole.

Deleted: I hate negativity please just block me. I don't value or want negative interaction. If there was a way to know who you are, I would and will block you for down voting casual comments and conversation.
- Dude, you ok? If downvotes harsh your vibe, yeet them out the window and move to an instance that doesn't do downvotes. The one I'm on, for example, and I assume others. From my perspective, I have zero downvotes on any comment or post ever.
  
  Blåhaj Lemmy has no downvotes and it's been surprisingly amazing for my mental health.

51 comments