bLuEmAGa

Pro-Palestine protest votes didn't cost the Dems the election, but that a single group was not the deciding factor in a contest does not absolve them of responsibility. IE single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump's victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.

And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.

And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
The dimbass games are posts like this instead of arguing for civil disruption and actions beyond elections. The protesters entire point was the election won't stop the genocide either way and further action is needed. Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that's already fucking over serves nothing. Unless you don't care about the issue in the first place and just want to be divisive about it.
- What actions do you suggest?
  
  Any direct action and organizing, frankly. From mutual aid and disruptive protests to boycott, sabotage, and strike(which would take years to organize).
- The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed.
  And in the interest of furthering that point, they did everything they could to ensure a Democratic defeat. After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it's only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
  Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing.
  I'm not trying to bait them into any sort of argument. They're long past help. They're out here on Lemmy already praising Trump as the 'lesser evil' and insisting, even now, that there's no difference between Trump and Harris in terms of policy. Any argument with them is fucking pointless.
  But I'm sorry that you don't like that I'm not giving them asspats for their 'principled' stand against American minorities over an issue that, even according to your summary of their motivations, they realized would not be changed by their attacks on the non-fascist candidate in the election.
  
  After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it’s only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
  Solidarity for me, but not for thee. It doesn't work out well.
  
  Yes, this is why the smartest choice for LGBT folk in 1939 Poland would have been to welcome the Nazis, what with Poland being, at the time, far from LGBT-friendly. Because if there's not solidarity for everyone, there should be solidarity for no one.
  /s, for all of those out there patting each other on the back over ensuring the fascist won the 2024 American presidential election.
  
  Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was. Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It's an expected outcome. I voted for Harris but you don't see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
  
  Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice
  Oh, of course, when you can't achieve justice by voting, the correct decision is to ensure that voting results in the worst possible resolution. If you can't have justice, you must have as much injustice as possible. The only moral choice, of course. Basic accelerationism. Every good revolutionary knows this.
  you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was.
  Like fucking what? The easy answer of "We're going to rise up and firebomb the rich any day now :''')" has been parroted by leftist wannabe suburban kids since the 70s; fuck's sake, I've heard the line myself for the past 20 fucking years. And what has happened? Where are these masses ready to rise up, since they find voting no longer radical enough for their tastes?
  They aren't exchanging voting for more effective forms of change. They're just abandoning voting, and replacing it with jack fucking shit. They continue to sit on their fucking asses, like always. They don't organize en masse, they don't take up lone wolf violence. They do nothing, except play at purity games to jerk themselves off over how pure they are for abandoning as many minorities and oppressed groups as they can to literal fucking fascists. And you know who suffers for it?
  All of us.
  Fuck's sake.
  Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome.
  Are you fucking kidding me? "Resistance is nonparticipation"?
  What a fucking joke. Am I suppose to thank these twats for nonparticipating us into camps? Should I thank them for nonparticipating Ukraine into a potential genocide? What did nonparticipation gain us 'revolutionary' elements? Are we better poised to strike against the system now? No? We're actually worse off? Fucking fantastic.
  I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
  "This system needs to go" does not need the addendum "Therefore, I'm going to make the system as terrible as possible".
  
  You think I'm naive for telling you how things work? Believing that someone is going to remain participatory with a government that's genuinely greenlighting genocide like the Dems were because the opposition will... greenlight genocide... is delusional. If that's their primary moral issue, they are expected to not participate.
  What's naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn't. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
  
  You think I’m naive for telling you how things work?
  No, I think you're an apologist for literal fascist enablers. That's different than naive.
  But hey, who needs to address any of the points raised? Certainly not you, it would seem.
  What’s naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn’t. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
  Again - what alternative to electoralism is being proposed, here? There's fucking nothing, and no amount of suburban kids LARPing and high-fiving over how pure they are to their online buddies changes that. Sitting here and saying "Disinfecting the wound isn't enough, it needs to be sutured", and then proceeding to prevent anyone from disinfecting the wound and refusing to suture it (and, in this case, 2024, then proceeding to engage in 'nonparticipation', restraining the half-assed disinfectors from preventing a charlatan from rubbing his feces into the wound and proclaiming it healed) isn't some noble fucking stand. It's privileged shite from people who don't seriously think they'll be seeing any of the consequences of their actions.
  
  Yeah, I could call you an apologist for genocide enablers if I wanted to spout inflammatory nonsense, but that was directly my point. Your entire argument about a lost election where you refuse to even consider that there are paths to resistance just because I haven't named things like disruptive protests, boycotts, and general organization is counterproductive. This entire screed is counterproductive. Calling me a fascist enabler apologist when I'm obviously a leftist is the exact stupid games I was referring to in the first place. This is the stupidity.
single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump's victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.
Except they didnt vote for trump and it's disgusting to pretend otherwise
- Except they didnt vote for trump and it’s disgusting to pretend otherwise
  But they helped him become president. Do you understand that you can help someone become president even if you don't vote for them? Is that a concept that you can grasp?
  
  But they helped him become president
  Millions of people in solid blue states didn't vote, you think they helped Trump win?
  Blanket statements like "if they didn't vote they voted for trump" are fucking stupid when you look at literally any detailed data
- Pro-Israel voters absolutely voted for Trump.
  
  So we're discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?
  
  So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?
  What is that supposed to even mean?
  
  Well at least you admit to awful reading capabilities
  
  Bruh, I explicitly made the point of "Being a small part of the problem does not absolve people of being part of the problem", and your response is
  So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?
  Between the fact that we were discussing a 'tiny portion of people' from the very start and that 'authoritarian vote bullshit' is a vague phrase that makes no solid assertions except "vote bad >:(" for some reason, you've said nothing of substance unless there's some means of clarifying. I offered you a chance to clarify. You declined.
  Don't really know how much more help you want here. I'm not here to spoonfeed you, guy.
Well said. I really wish people understood that blame can be shared because they really don't seem to understand that and haven't since November.
- They understand. They just don't want the blame and want to shift the responsibility for their irresponsible actions to anyone but themselves.
Because the effect is the same. Sorry, again, you might finally experience what others have been.
- If you think this shit is gonna be worse internally than externally; you're gonna have a bad time.
  But hey, you know best right? Nobody told you what would happen before, right? They weren't all proven correct, right?

Pretty much. They didn't offer anything their constituents wanted except for escape from DJT.

Unfortunately "We aren't Donald Trump" wasn't a winning strategy two of the three times they tried it.
I wonder what two terrible choices we are gonna have in 2028. Watch it be like fuckin Nancy Pelosi with an exoskeleton holding her up vs Dan Crenshaw who will have replaced his eye patch with a gun by then.
- And, remember, it almost didn't even work the second time. Biden was the only candidate running for the nomination poised to lose to Trump and he was forced on us, seemingly as punishment for us demanding healthcare. They were willing to throw 2020 and would have lost had the unpredictable and extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 not occurred, along with Trump's absolutely bungled response. Covid-19 was the sole event that propelled Biden to the white house. And then he was exactly as ineffective and terrible as all leftists predicted and we got Trump back because of it.
  
  I think both Trump and Biden handled COVID fucking terribly.
  Really most nations handled it really fucking badly. I can forgive initial mistakes like not knowing how potent it was or how infectious it was, but once they knew the masks were pointless why the hell did they continue to push that crap everywhere.
  
  It's absolutely a disgrace how the Dems handled it after an entire year of Trump trying to pretend it just didn't exist or was just a cold and using that in their campaign. Then when it became convenient for them they began to pretend it was over.
  
  Politicians continuing to be fuckin useless yet again.
- Well, whoever it is, it'll be them running against Trump, because he's already hinted at running for a third term, and he doesn't give a shit if things he does are illegal. And again, whoever it is the Dems pick, they'll be such shitheads that they'll lose the election against Trump again, for the third time. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever they learn their lesson in the next four years, because democrats are mentally incapable of even considering they could ever do anything wrong.
- "two"
  
  I'm not really sure what you were trying to get at with that comment. Are you implying that it wasn't two times that Donald Trump won?
  
  Oh sorry. "Two" parties.
I question even that: Did they really? Where did the party articulate a cohesive plan (or hell, even just an enthusiastic promise) to counter the rise of oligarchy?
They promised an escape from him stylistically, but the majority of citizens who aren't political junkies weren't sick of it, because they weren't exposed to it, because they don't pay much attention to political news. What did they promise that the non-informed voter would notice in they're day-to-day life?
- They promised that their oligarchs would be nicer to us. Which, to be fair, is probably true.
You'd think that would've been enough....
- ok

Well many folks stayed home, and there's no number for that (by intention...staying home is staying home) so it would be hard to quantify.

But apathy in the face of a trump second term is worth discussing, given what was common knowledge about him by then

I think the 2024 election cycle failure falls almost exclusively on the shoulders of the Democrats.
Yeah Trump and his bullshit obviously played a part in where we ended up, but I genuinely believe that it more so came down to how the Democrats handled things in the years leading up to and during the election. I know people want to shift blame and point fingers. You could even make the argument that I'm doing that right now, but the data says otherwise.
It's not like Trump is some generally beloved figure that was already super popular. No he's highly controversial. Many old school Republicans and conservatives despise the guy.
So how does someone that nobody on the left likes and significant chunks on the right also aren't a fan of end up in the office again?
At some point the democratic party need to actually reflect on where they went wrong instead of just pointing fingers and trying to shift blame.
At the end of the day it's the job of the party to earn the votes of the people. They clearly didn't earn enough votes.
Blue lost ground to red in every single state. That type of thing doesn't just happen outta nowhere.
- I acknowledge that the Dems MUST change. That's super true.
  But based on real historical information about trump, plus his clear intentions for this term, I would have elected an incontinent Chihuahua over trump. At least the Chihuahua would have just shit on the floor of the oval office rather than trashing minority/immigrant rights, climate/science progress, and health research and vaccine implementation all in the first week.
  So if there's criticism of dems, which is valid, there's a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses, which are in great excess to anything DEM status quo
  
  True. People keep saying there was nothing different from the Harris campaign that made her different from Biden, but when you compare the status quo, even the version of the status quo that Biden's biggest critics were inventing, it would have still been preferable to re-electing the guy who tried to literally steal the election last time. We could have only been so lucky to have the status quo.
  
  We never needed to discuss Biden accidentally declaring the entire country female.
  
  Or raping people.
  Or being a felon.
  
  The status quo is going to look so desirable. Even just by the end of this year. We'll be begging for it. Just like we were at the end of 2020. But Americans have the memory span of hamsters. So here we are.
  
  So if there's criticism of dems, which is valid, there's a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses, which are in great excess to anything DEM status quo
  The inescapable conclusion is that, despite their rhetoric, the Democratic Party did not actually see Trump as a risk to the status quo -- at least not the status quo they actually care about (their donors' plutocratic gravy train), as opposed to the status quo they claim to care about (egalitarianism/civil rights).
  In other words, "the Dems MUST change" is a huge understatement. It also has zero chance of happening -- other than doubling down on the "we must court the mythological Enlightened Centrist and move right" change for the worse -- under the current party leadership.
  
  So if there’s criticism of dems, which is valid, there’s a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses
  Dems have ALWAYS been held to a higher standard. They have to be flawless, while Republicans literally get to be lawless.
  It's absurd and is a damning condemnation of the intelligence of the average American. If Dems don't do exactly as we want with halos over their heads, we just throw our hands up in the air and go with our direct abusers instead. It's pathetic. It's so childish.
  
  Completely agree.
  It's like the al franken thing. What he did in that joking photo was 100% wrong. But was it requiring he be expelled? Further, an active, effective blue legislator was lost for something conservatives would never have done. In some cases that's a damn good thing.
  So, on the one hand, punishment and criticism was required, but the standard is so sky high that dems just lose to republicans.
  Please be clear, I'm not condoning his behavior or suggesting nothing should have happened, but I think the action shouldn't have been running him out of town without question.
- I think the 2024 election cycle failure falls almost exclusively on the shoulders of the Democrats.
  You make some valid points, certainly. But what people are failing to recognize is none of that matters now.
  We had one day, or one vote to stop this tidal wave of evil and we did not do it. Did the DNC fail to appear on a sports talk show, or drive a garbage truck around? Did they not mobilize a nationwide caucus to choose the best candidate from every single human alive today with just four months to go? Yeah, i guess, whatever - it doesn’t matter.
  People who refused to stop trump because of Palestine helped ensure that situation would get 100x worse. And they were complete ignorant assholes about it. Dog forbid they learn anything from this.
  
  This. At the end of the day the only responsible ones are the people and whether or not they vote for good, or standby and let evil prevail.
  The responsibility for this lies squarely with the American people. Not the DNC.
  
  Yup.
  Blame parties all you want. The American people failed at maintaining their democracy. It's our fault as an electorate. Our shit government is a reflection of our shit electorate.
  I'm getting real tired of the "they didn't earn my vote" bullshit. How about those fools actually look up data over time regarding both parties and make an educated vote? Especially in this election, which was the most blatant election we're ever likely to see. This was, in no way, a confusing election. The better option was so unbelievably obvious the English language almost lacks words to describe it.
  
  It certainly was that obvious if you pay attention how we do, but don't you see how blaming the populous takes this from an actionable problem to a less actionable one. 'Improving' the populace requires a concerted effort and time, both of which are lacking...
  Surely it would be better to blame the bullshit artists stirring the pot than the general public. That is, those who push the narrative so heavily in favour of the right regardless of the individual democrats actions. Those who intentionally undermine education and control information such that false narratives can prevail.
  But it is also naive to act like the DNC was entirely without fault. There can be multiple parties at fault. They need to meet people where they are at, otherwise they won't get anywhere.
- At the end of the day it’s the job of the party to earn the votes of the people. They clearly didn’t earn enough votes.
  But what does that mean when you're up against a party entirely comfortable with outright lying, who are willing to peddle the most extreme, absurd propaganda to a nation of dunces that actually eat it up?
  Does that mean Democrats should become what we hate and just start lying and peddling the craziest propaganda possible like the Republicans?
  I don't see the Dem's campaign as being the issue. The issues are that Americans are dumb as fuck and that we have ALWAYS held Democrats to higher standards. So even if they run a cleaner campaign and have a voting history proving they are better for the middle/lower classes, we still DEMAND more of them, or else we're going to just go with our abusers instead.
  Americans are fucking dumb. That's not really the Dem's fault. Especially since they support our public education system WAY more than Republicans do, who want to privatize it.
Yo can do some demographic analysis on it and that points to: white suburban men didn't shou up to vote.
Here's a video discussing the data
- That's true but you can't attribute exactly why, which was my point.
  You can make some correlations about identifying key issues to a given group, but you can't guarantee their absence wasn't just due to either not being able to vote due to work or some other legitimate limitation on their ability, or just being a shitty lazy citizen, or protest absence

It wouldn't have been a landslide, but it certainly assured the worst case scenario, MAGA sweeping all 3.

Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise, maybe the Democrats regained the house, maybe held onto the Senate. Maybe Trump would have lost, but Republicunts held onto Congress.

Who knows, but any of those would have been 10000x better than letting Drump get a hold of all 3.

Now everyone is screwed in some way.

Id say anyone with half a brain, paid attention and was an informed voter knew exactly this is what we were in for - but it's clear most Americans are not informed because of the huge number of people who didn't participate (for whatever reasons)

Highly engaged voters voted overwhelmingly for Kamala. Not because they liked her, but because they knew the alternative was dog shit. This is not an ideal situation.

What do you mean don't blame the brown people for White America's problems/identity crisis?

Fuckin what?
If you think white people have problems because of brown people, you're a stupid fuck. White people collect all the money that makes white people poor.
"It's pretty cool that MAGA Elon has so much money and my life sucks."
- Agreed 💯