2y ago

‘Nobody’s hands are clean’: Obama urges reflection amid Israel-Hamas conflict

www.politico.com ‘Nobody’s hands are clean’: Obama urges reflection amid Israel-Hamas conflict

Reflecting on his presidency, Obama posed the question, “Well, was there something else I could have done?”

Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”

“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.

228 comments

And he’s 100% correct.
- Thank you so much.
  This is way more complex than it's getting credit for.
  It always has been.
  Anyway, I miss having a better leader. He was just so presidential. Not perfect, but no one can be.
  
  he was a piece of shit. an eloquent neolib piece of shit. easy to reminisce about the better times when the last 2 presidents have been trash.
- Even the dead children?
  
  What does this even mean?
  
  @roofuskit
  That's what I thought when I saw the headline but he's actually talking about state actors when you read the context:
  “All this is taking place against the backdrop of decades of failure to achieve a durable peace for both Israelis and Palestinians, one that is based on genuine security for Israel, a recognition of its right to exist, and a peace that is based on an end of the occupation and the creation of a viable state and self-determination for the Palestinian people,” he added.
  
  Especially the dead children. They were obviously bad because they chose to get born into the wrong place. Jesus hates them and had them killed for a reason. They should have chosen to get borned into a nice white Christian family in America.
  some dumbass cracker evangelical, probably.
  
  yes, even the giraffes.

This is bad news for Israels current course of action. When the guy who was popular (enough that the current guy could "best friend" his coat tails into office) starts saying this stuff loud enough for everyone to hear, it's intentional. This looks like more subtle public distancing and changing of narrative.
The former president argued that it was important to acknowledge multiple seemingly contradictory truths: Hamas’ actions were “horrific,” but “the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians” were also “unbearable.”
Obama previously spoke out on the conflict, saying in a statement that any actions by Israel that ignore the human cost of the war against Hamas “could ultimately backfire.”
Israel and it's supporters should be sobered by this soft diplomacy. It's very much aimed at them and the timing should make it clear that they are being isolated.

Funny they never say this kinda shit or act upon it when they have any actual power. Like Eisenhower and his military industrial complex speech.
- It's also pretty rich coming from guy who thought drone collateral was not a problem in Afghanistan.
  He's lucky we wasn't president during the last time there was a huge Israeli-Palestinian blowout, otherwise he'd have a 1:1 comparison with Biden.
  
  Voluntarily releasing reports on civilian casualties doesn't seem like they thought it wasn't a problem
  
  What makes you say he didn't think accidental civilian deaths were a problem?
- Presidents/Prime Ministers become beacons of morality once out of office.
  
  Or in Obamas case, Nobel peace prize winner > War Criminal > Beacon of morality
- https://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/08/world/europe/france-sarkozy-netanyahu/index.html
  His real thoughts speak volumes lol.
- when they have any actual power
  Spoiler: they don't. Elected presidents can't speak against whoever would successfully lobby to impeach them.

Honestly, the whole truth of the situation is that the subjugation and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was a direct byproduct/prerequisite of the creation of the Israeli state. We will get nowhere if nobody addresses this fundamental aggravant at the heart of this conflict, that formed the basis for the militarized apartheid system that exists there today. These are just pithy quips about "nobody's perfect" coming from somebody with olympic swimming pools of blood on his hands.
The reality's that the only people with the real vision to create peace in this situation have long been sidelined from the political discussion. I'm really encouraged looking at stuff like https://www.odsi.co/en/ that actually understands the fundamental problems going on here. We'll get absolutely nowhere listening to the political establishment in the U.S. or Israel that spent most of the last century manufacturing this situation.
- Yes but none of us were alive when it happened. Now there'sa nuclear armed ethnostate literally surrounded by (to them) existential enemies, and it just so happens they speak English gud and like the same brand of deity, and let wonder woman move to Hollywood.
  Shit is fucked.

the babies on respirators in gaza hospitals are.
- Hamas is hiding in their premature baby bodies
- Wasn't that Hamas who did the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital bombing? Though it's debatable.
  https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/briefing/gaza-hospital-explosion.html
  And while much about the hospital explosion remains unclear, the available evidence points toward a Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike, as the more likely cause.
  
  Even if it was a misfired Palestinian rocket, which still isn't proven btw, it doesn't outweigh the 30+ hospitals that Israel has bombed to this day, or for that matter the fucking refugee camp they bombed last week.
  
  I think hospital bombings on both sides must always be taken with a grain of salt... because if you are in a war and are highly unethical; where is the best place to operate a military base from, if you want to protect it from bombings?

This is bullshit. Israel's response is completely disproportionate. 2000+ children are dead in Gaza.
- I don't see where Obama said anything about things being proportionate, and I don't know what "proportionate" has to do with the fact that heinous acts have been taken by both sides.
  
  There's no "both sides" to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.
- Terrorists consider civilian casualties to be a scorecard. Hamas benefits when there's Israeli civilian casualties. Hamas also benefits when there's Palestinian civilian casualties.
  That's the whole point of taking hostages isn't it? To force Israel into a ground campaign which will cause Palestinian civilian casualties.
  The military forces of civilized nations don't consider civilian casualties to be a victory no matter which side it's on. They have an objective and need to achieve that objective while minimizing civilian casualties. The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties. But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty even when they make an to keep those casualties to a minimum.
  This is the nature of war. And this is a war Hamas started. And remember there could be significantly fewer casualties (and a humanitarian ceasefire) if Hamas released the hostages.
  But they won't do that because their objective is to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties because many people look at those casualties and become angry and want to support them.
  Netanyahu will lose power because of 1400 Israeli deaths. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered to be a failure by Israelis.
  Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered a success by Hamas. They are psychopaths that know how people react to these numbers.
  
  Constantly bombs refugee camps, schools, and hospitals This is just war, bro. Yeah we have the 4th most sophisticated and accurate military on earth but we just can't help hitting civilians who just happen to be a minority in their own land...
  Dude, the logical hoops you'll jump through to justify a genocide is extremely concerning.
  Holocaust scholars all over the world have even condemned the bloodshed.
  This isn't the cost of war. It's punishment. It's imperialism.
  
  I like your username
  
  The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties.
  When a legitimate target is hiding among civilians, there are two possible responses:
  Civilized nations: "F%ck, guess we'll have to wait until they move"
  Non-civilized nations: "Collateral damage"
  But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty
  No "buts". Like it or not, defend it or not, that's what non-civilized nations do.
- Yep, genocide not cool Israel. The future will not be kind to you.
- But only because they are the ones in power. If the positions of power were reversed, it'd be pretty much the same thing, except Hamas would be the one performing the apartheid and the genocide.
  
  It's probably true. But it's still a disproportionate response.
  
  Bullshit made up comment.
- You seem to not understand what a proportionate response in war is. Israel's goal is extermination of the terrorist threat in Gaza, their actions are proportional for those goals. Not lost in the calculation is the terrorists saying they intend on continuing their terror attacks on civilians, making a ceasefire all but impossible to institute.
  The question of whether or not it's humane or ethical is a different question that should be debated.
  
  The only reason a terrorist threat exists at all is that Israel has openly said they are trying to genocide Palestinians. Combined with the last 30 years of Apartheid they've already done.

Both sides may have fault however there is a fundamental difference between Israel and Hamas. Hamas is a relatively small terrorist group from a region (Gaza) that has been oppressed and had food, water, and electricity limited (even before the war). Meanwhile Israel has one of the largest militaries and occupies Gaza. The death toll and injuries are not even compatible nor the sheer scale of the war crimes committed by Israel.
- Have you considered that if Gaza didn’t have terrorist groups they might a functioning society and government?
  
  You mean like the West Bank? 🙃
  
  Maybe if israeli hardliners didn't support the founding of Hamas and assassinate Rabin they could have reached a peaceful solution almost 20 years ago?

Fuck, he aged a lot.

Well thought out response from someone who knows how to captivate an audience. I miss his leadership even if there were some key flaws during his terms (e.g. the gross overuse of drone strikes).
Ultimately, no president is perfect but I also believe their ability to be a figure head who can make the public look inward, from time to time, is important.
Trump did nothing to lead. He just spread anger and hostility. Biden, while he means well, has never been the beet public speaker (both in presence and in avoiding putting his foot in his mouth).
- I'd rather have an effective leader than a charismatic one. I don't elect presidents to assuage my fee-fees, and the fact that the rest of the population does is the problem.
  
  It's unfortunate but charisma is a very important component in contemporary American politics. I think that's largely the reason Hillary lost the election. Trump is not as qualified as she was but he is much more charismatic. I think it's because people don't care enough to do stay informed and research candidates. So they make emotional decisions based on the stupidest criteria. The biggest example is one of the factors that got George W elected/reelected, "I'd rather have a beer with him than the other guy" .
  
  Who did you vote for the last five elections and why?

“It’s complicated” is no excuse to be arming an already powerful nation with our tax dollars to make the situation more “complicated.”
If it’s so damn complicated, maybe we shouldn’t be sending arms and tax dollars directly over to Israel, but rather send humanitarian aid to both sides instead.
Taking a side in a complicated conflict of which many people don’t fully understand is an unwise decision, and using tax dollars to arm one or even both sides of a conflict we don’t fully understand is unethical.
- Its their job to understand it, and they do. what they understand is that while supporting israel has a monetary cost , it secures our trade routes, which egypt has tried to close purely because 'fuck you' through the Mediterranean and puts pressure on the rest of the middle east to support the petrol dollar.
  If the arab countries were remotely as friendly as israel, itd diminish their value as an ally potentially to the extent that we wouldnt have to overlook the atrocities they commit. The reality is that ISIS and Hezbollah and Hamas are 100x worse. Ad soon as Iran gets nukes, theyre going to become another north korea, potentially a catalyst for WW3, and we need an ally in the region as leverage to prevent that.
  What this latest conflict has shown is that they will absolutely make suicidally stupid attacks that will result in massive casualties to their own people, so long as it advances their goal of genociding jews and anyone else thats not an arab.
  Say what you want about israel, but theyve been on the brink of kicking netanyahu and his racist ass out of office for years. Hes in a very similar situation legally to Trump. Hamas's attack has virtually ensured that won't happen now , as the nation enters a state of emergency, and theyve proved his fear mongering true.

Wow Barack "double Bush's drone strikes, kill 12,000 Afghani civilians, and bomb a Doctor's Without Boarders hospital" Obama wants to show restraint now that he's no longer in a position to stop the bloodshed...

Didn't he drop more bombs in Afghanistan and the middle East during his time in office?
(that's a legit question - I don't know or claim to know)
- Get the fuck out of here with your Tucker Carlson "I'm just asking questions" bullshit. The little kids table is to the left of the soft serve machine.
  
  I don't know what a trucker Carlson is. Is that a light beer for truckers? (again. I have? Idea)
  But for your info. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-president-barack-obama-bomb-map-drone-wars-strikes-20000-pakistan-middle-east-afghanistan-a7534851.html
  I don't k ow what you are suggesting. Nor do I understand the down votes for asking a question about a country that isn't mine.
  Life Must be hard with you being so soft that questions hurt.

ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war,
What "complexities"? There is absolutely nothing "complex" about white supremacist settler-colonialism. End of story.
What "Israel-Hamas war"? Israel has been waging war on Palestinians since 1949 - long before Hames existed.
Fuck Barack "No We Can't!" Obama and his lib blame-shifting bullshittery.
- There is absolutely nothing “complex” about white supremacist settler-colonialism. End of story.
  It's a rarity to see someone with their head so far up their own ass as to say something like that and be completely serious.
  
  Oh look... more people hiding their support for white supremacist settler-colonialism behind (alleged) "complexities."
  I'd say that if you are finding it difficult to see someone with their head up their own ass you should try shoving a mirror where the sun don't shine - it's not going to work for you any other way.

And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree
Nuh-uh. You are not dragging me into this shit. I didn't want any of it!
- He’s talking more broadly about governments and factions, not individual people
  
  Right. People like simple narratives: "A is the Good Side. They don't do anything bad. If A does something that looks bad, it's because Evil B made them. Everyone within A are saints. B is that Evil Side. Everything they do is evil. If B does something that looks good, it's either propaganda or a trick. Everyone in B are devils and deserve to be wiped out!"
  In truth, both sides in this conflict have done horrible things (and, no, committing atrocities "because you had a good reason" doesn't absolve the atrocities). In addition, there are foreign elements tossing gas on the fire. Iran on the Hamas side, giving them resources to kill Jews. Evangelical Christians on the Israeli side, supporting settlers and right wing politicians in the hopes that a big attack will happen and get Jesus to come back.
  The whole region is a Gordian Knot, but too many people just want simple answers. If the answer was simple, we'd have peace there by now.
- Same. Maybe he means the pols. Yeah, right.

228 comments