memes @lemmy.world

1mo ago

Teleportation problem

176 comments

If it's jot you then the question becomes, are you willing to commit suicide so a reasonable facsimile of you can save some strangers.
- I'm willing to die to save people, so if some version of me actually gets to survive it, with there being a chance that it is me, then there's no reason for me not to do it.
  
  Are you willing to die to save any people?
- I'd pull the lever if I was tied to the other track. The only meaningful difference is that there will be someone who shares my values and experiences roaming the earth after I die. I can live with that.
  I wonder if that would inspire him to become healthier and live longer. If I knew someome sacrificed their life so I could live, I would probably treat my body a lot better. Maybe I should go through a transporter...

It won't be me and, unless I have some loved one there, I'm not thoughtlessly jumping into suicide.
- If it's a wormhole or Niven-style teleporter, it's unarguably you coming through the process. Star Trek... I'll grant that the conversation gets a little more complicated.
  
  i think this particular case implies itbis quantum teleportation where your body is destructed and simultaneously reassembled on the other side
- I think teleportation is a really interesting philosophical question. If life is deterministic and there is no soul, then there should be no problem with teleportation. From a deterministic atheist perspective it should not be a problem, I wouldn't teleport myself though 😅
  
  I think it's mostly a semantic argument: nothing is being "teleported", it's a copy. That copy will surely be a perfect copy of me at time T, and after T we'll drift and become different folks, but a copy of me is not me, and if you punch the copy it doesn't hurt me. SOMA showcases it pretty well! Anything else cannot even be conceived, right? And even if matter could be "transported" FTL into a different place, wouldn't the "zipping" process destroy me? The silver cord would be cut, and even if the person on the other side wakes up feeling like me, I would already be gone. It's consciousness and the vessel for consciousness, not one or the other.
  
  It's one or the other. Cogito ergo sum vs. esse est percipi.
  
  Doesn't matter because your original brain was destroyed. You would be dead and a copy of you would remain.
  
  Hi, I'm a naturalistic determinist atheist. I won't be taking a teleporter. The problem is that my body (which my continuous conscious experience resides in) will get erased if I do.
  Replace "dismantled by the teleporter" with "shot in the head," and it might make it a bit more obvious why it matters that the original you dies. I wouldn't want to be shot in the head, even if I knew there was a perfect facsimile of me being constructed the moment the bullet entered my brain. The fact that this me would die makes intuitive sense to me.
  
  Deterministic atheism isn’t at odds with a soul or non-physicalism. See: Walden Pod

Depends if teleportation uses TCP or UDP
- And what compression algorithm are they using?
  
  Quantum mechanic wavelengths in mp3. So you might arrive a bit off.
- UDP teleportation sounds pretty questionable.
- SCTP

Doesn't that make it even more selfless?

Doesn't it depend if the teleporter open a up a wormhole or used replication?

If you teleport the people off the tracks then you can kill them all while still taking credit for saving them.

My concern would be less about whether it sends the original or creates a perfect copy, but more about how reliable it is. Getting Riker'd/Boimler'd would be okay, but having more than a negligible chance of any other sort of transporter accident would definitely give me pause.

You’ve shed and replaced every atom that you were made of when you were born and many times over since then, are you still that same entity?
- Yeah, but you didn't shed them all at once. If the ship of Theseus exploded, and then they built a new one, the question wouldn't be, "Which is the true ship of Theseus?" it would be, "Hey, did you guys see Theseus' new ship?"
  
  How many components have to be changed all at once for it to be a new ship?
  If all but one of the planks is new but one of them is from the original ship is it still the original ship, if not then how many planks from the original ship need to be included in the new ship for it to be the original ship?
  
  It’s all just abstract philosophy on a non-reality scenario, I’m just having fun with it.
  On a heavily relative note, though, has anyone watched Space Dandy? The show about a dandy guy in space?

Shit like this always remind me of the videogame SOMA.
- That game has the best story and atmosphere I've ever seen in my life (maybe except for HL2)
  
  I kinda wish SOMA hit for me but I was already well-aware of the "teleportation problem" and have an established position, so instead I was frustrated at the slow pace of much of the game and annoyed that the protagonist didn't understand. It felt like "Bioshock at home".
  
  Half-Life is very different but also extremely good. And that's despite it not even being my favorite Valve series, Portal is.
  
  And by HL2 you mean Half Life 2? Which has a shitty and unfinished story and way less atmosphere than its original game HL1???
- Have had that game in my library for years, maybe I need to play it
  
  You should. It's incredible. Just realize it's a walking sim. If you're okay with that then def play it.

I tend to think what "you" are is the pattern formed by the various electrical and chemical signals in your brain and whatever other parts of your body are involved in cognition, and since patterns are ultimately information, and a completely identical copy of some information is the same information with nothing to distinguish it, that a sufficiently perfect copy of you literally is you, and as such, if the teleporter works the way fictional teleporters are generally described as working, then yes, it is you.
- For everyone else, yes. But the you you are now will cease to exist. Your consciousness won’t transfer.
  
  I don't believe continuity of consciousness is actually required to maintain the identity of consciousness, is the thing. I think that, if you died, and then were brought back some how, you wouldn't have some "new" consciousness that merely think it's the first one, but literally would have the first one again, to the degree that such a thing can be called the same from moment to moment even under normal circumstances anyway.
  
  Your consciousness ceases to exist every time you go to sleep though. Your brain changes significantly during sleep - memories are solidified, motor skills will be hardened etc. The new consciousness is clearly different from the old one. Why is teleportation so different?
- I think the real argument or concern behind this is, do we have a soul?
  If not, then yes, stepping into a transporter means that you die, and that some other version of you continues on, but that doesn't matter because nothing was actually lost.
  If we do have a soul, then the question becomes, does your soul survive the transport?
  If it does, then it's no worries, it's just a means of transportation.
  But if it doesn't, then does the version of you that pops out of the other side have a brand new soul, or is it now soulless?
  And finally, how could we ever tell?
  
  I think the first of those approximates my view, just with the added caveat that your consciousness is "something", since we use the word to describe some aspect of our experience even if we don't fully understand it, and if there's no physical basis for anything to have been lost in this process because the copy is the same, that implies to me that your consciousness must have been preserved or recreated as well.

The Trolly Problem of Thesius
- The traveling salesmans trolley problem of Theseus if you try to find out first how to get everywhere efficiently.

I know how teleportation machines work and I won't be using one.
- Wait, you.... you do?
  
  i do too btw
  just take any train :-)

Easiest one ever, ship of thesius here I come!
- Bahahaha.

Define "you." An identical collection and pattern of atoms and subatomic particles? Then yes. A continuous consciousness as experienced by the "me" on the entry side of the teleporter? No.
Would I kill myself to save five lives and create one? Yes
- There is no way to know that were not constantly dying and being replaced. The experience of continuity may be an illusion because you don't notice that you're only alive for a split second, and replacing the consciousness that was alive a split second before you.
  
  Okay? That's all well and good, but there is a way to know that a transporter does kill you. Given a choice between maybe living or definitely dying, I'm gonna choose the former.
  
  I say there's no rational reason to assume you aren't constantly “dying” and being replaced by next moment's “you”.
- This here, although teleporters might actually be implemented in a way that transmits the original being to the destination. It's a fictional technology after all, so why not?
  
  Yeah, I am assuming Star Trek transporters. If it's a wormhole then it's fine
- You're not a continuous consciousness anyway. Sleep is a thing.
  
  I'd go deeper and say that “continuous consciousness” isn't a concept that makes sense. You only live in the moment, with access to part of your past selves’ memories.
  So there's no distinction for you between “you have been destroyed and an identical copy of you has been constructed an imperceptible amont of time later” and “an imperceptible amount of time had passed in which nothing has happened to you”
  
  I hate that comic. Equivocation is a fallacy. Your alarm clock is proof that you don't lose experiential consciousness when you sleep.
- What makes you think that “continuous consciousness” is a thing and not just the way it feels like to exist?
  Do you fell like you're made out of cells? Do you feel the hormones influencing your thinking? Then why do you think that the perceived continuity of having an ego is a real thing that exists? No soul has been measured so far.
  
  I'm not a philosopher, so this response will be imperfect and is subject to revision.
  Then why do you think that the perceived continuity of having an ego is a real thing that exists?
  My current response to this is that something can exist without being made of something. Consciousness is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex, chemically active neurological system. (Someone can poke holes in this definition if they like, but come on dude, principle of charity. You get what I mean.) Essentially, "how it feels like to exist" is a real, if immaterial, thing. Just like mathematics and language.
  If someone makes a perfect copy of my brain and body over by the lever, using none of the materials from my original body, then it is a different brain and body, no matter how arbitrarily similar it is. The consciousness that was by the entrance to the teleporter will never experience pulling the lever.

Time to post Existential Comics again
https://existentialcomics.com/comic/1
- I hate this comic. Your alarm clock is proof that you don't truly lose consciousness in the way this comic implies when you go to sleep.
  
  Yeah, it's a weakness in the comic, but you can fix it by imagining being frozen (in a sci-fi way that doesn't form ice crystals that kill you) then thawed.
  You'd awake just like from sleep and there would have been a period of true nothing in between.
  Did you die and a new you was woken up? I say there is no “true you”. There's a body having your memories and behavior, thinking it's you and that's all that matters. There is no magic piece that actually gets loost when you get frozen or teleported. A you enters, a you leaves, so nobody died and nothing is lost.
  There are no souls, there is no magic continuous bit that gets handed over to the next moment, there just the pattern, so as long as it persists, you are alive.

But if I don't do it, I'm not who I think I am.

Are there any flies buzzing around?
- No but theres billions of microbes on you

If we’re talking about atom-by-atom reconstruction, then the question is about philosophical zombies.
I don’t put much stock in any philosophies that say ~~you~~ the constructed being definitely would be a zombie. But I do believe in the possibility that ~~you~~ the constructed being could be a zombie.
- Zombie? More like vegetable. And what would kickstart your heart beating? What about the bacteria in your guts?
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
  A philosophical zombie (or "p-zombie") is a being in a thought experiment in the philosophy of mind that is physically identical to a normal human being but does not have conscious experience.
  
  And what would kickstart your heart beating?
  Skydive naked from an aeroplane, or perhaps a lady with a body from outer space
  Maybe just a custom built bike doing 103
  
  The heart never stops beating. It's created somewhere in its natural cycle and just continues doing what its molecular and electrical state dictate it does.
  
  I think that it is covered by "atom-by-atom". I suppose all matter that enters the machine is moved (or even if copied). Heart will just kickstart, because it runs on electrochemistry, if the ionic energy is there from all required "atoms". But that raises the question: does the energy state of that matter get transfered?

And then you wake up. It was a dream
And YOU’RE DRIVING THE TRAIN!

ok, i'm too stupid for this picture...why are commenters implying you die when you use the transporter? it's next to the rails isn't it?
- A common conundrum with science-fiction teleporters is that they're often described as breaking down, and then recreating, matter.
  With a human being (or other sentient life form), this brings up the philosophical question of whether the 'recreated' you is really you? If you were taken apart in chunks, and then someone put an exact copy of you back together from those chunks, would it still be the same 'you' that was taken apart? Or would it be a new 'you', some copy or clone with all of your memories?
  
  A fun little thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXKUcsvhQc
  
  ok, so the question is actually "would you use a teleporter to save someone's life not knowing if you would still be you afterwards". i was thrown off by the train tracks because usually it implies sending someone else to certain death. thanks for clearing that up.
  so i guess my answer would be of course. if transporters have become so ubiqitous that they are installed in seemingly random locations and with no fee or safety measures before using them i guess they are safe to use :)
- It depends on how it works. The most popular form of transporter works by scanning your body down to the subatomic level, deconstructing the original body, and creating a perfect replica somewhere else. Imagine for a moment that it didn't deconstruct the original body (as seen in Star Trek: The Next Generation episode Second Chances). The original and the copy are two separate entities.
  A transporter doesn't move you, it kills and reincarnates you. Unless it uses some kinda space bending wormhole tech to physically move the atoms from one spot to another, of course—then it doesn't kill you, and you're safe to pull the lever
  
  well, as someone with a buddhist mindset that is not a problem for me :D
- Have you seen "the prestiege"? I think that movie explains the problem perfectly.
  It's also a really good movie so enjoy.
- Theseus' ship
  Is it still the same ship if all of its parts have been replaced?

Technically it's cloning too. Just materialize in different teleporters at the same time.
- It’s cloning where the original is destroyed
  
  The best suicide method. No one will know unless the clone wanna end it too, but then if it'll be like a cycle until quantum fluctuations make one of the clones happy or they find meaning in life again. This would make a nice short story to read.

Nah, I'll send Tom Riker.

Leaving the top track empty is clever

No. Not because teleporter but because no need for multi track drifting if other path clear.
- Psychopath!

The trolley problem but the only way to pull the lever is to take a nap first.
Since your consciousness stopped and then a new was started from the same meat is it still you?
If it is, then surely a new consciousness constructed from a pile of meat identical to your brain would also be you?
- Your consciousness doesn't stop when you're asleep. Evidence: alarm clocks exist
  
  It does stop. When you are asleep you are unconscious.

Define 'you'.

Use a stick.

Cool meme
But the whole trolley part doesn't add anything to the question. You can leave it off and nothing changes. It is still just the question on whether teleporting transports you or copies you. Which depends entirely on the technology used.
- The joke is that trolley problems are usually used to portray moral dilemmas, so the teleporter is a subversion by rendering the trolley question irrelevant.
  
  I thought it was funny
  
  The trolley is still relevant because if you don't step into the transporter, people die. If you do, there's a good chance some version of you dies, but some version of you survives. So is the current version of you more valuable than the lives of the people on the track?
  
  Personally I love memes that mix different moral/philosophical dilemmas in silly ways
  The exemplar version of this concept
- I believe that the trolley portion is partly subtext: notice how, unlike in the traditional problem, there's nobody ON the other track. This is a variant where you must risk/accept personal annihilation of self to cause someone else identical to yourself to save five lives. It does add a layer, but I think it would be better to explicitly state the actual sacrifice, rather than asking the trite question.
- It also raises the question whether it's a perfect teleport or one that modifies you. While you might be willing to pull the lever before jumping into the teleport, you might not be afterwards.

176 comments