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Am I the only one who thinks social media has destroyed the spirit of the internet?

The emergence of social media has destroyed all the small communities to standardize communication and information.

It's a bit of a digital version of rural exodus. And since 2017/2018, I've noticed that everything that, in my opinion, represented the internet has disappeared.

I've known Lemmy for a few hours and I feel like I'm back in the early spirit of the internet.

205 comments
  • Its not so much social media that ruined it, as capitalism and centralization.

    Forums themselves are a form of social media, and they're (mostly) great. For Reddit and Lemmy, debatably the best part is the social elements, like the comments sections. The problem isn't the interaction or the "social" nature of it. Its that these platforms have turned into psudo-monopolies intent on controlling people and/or wringing them for every penny.

    Thats not to say toxicity and capitalistic exploitation didn't exist before either. The term "flame war" is older than a lot of adults today. Unlike today though, platforms were both more decentralized meaning they were easier to manage and users could switch platform, and were less alorithmic meaning that users could more easily avoid large, bad-faith actors. You'll notice the Fediverse have both these qualities, which is part of why its done so well.

    IMO, the best fix to this, would be twofold. A) break up the big monopolies and possibly the psudo-monopolies. Monopolies bad, simple enough. B) Much more difficult, but I believe that what content a site promotes, including algorithmically, should be regulated. Thats not to say sorting algorithms should be banned, but I think we need to regulate how they're used and implemented. For example, regulations could include things like requiring alternative algorithms be offered to users, banning "black box" algorithms, requiring the algorithns be publicly published, and/or banning algorithms that change based on an individual's engagement. Ideally, this would give the user more agency over their experience and would reduce the odds of ignorant users being pushed into cult-like rabbit-holes.

  • It's not social media that did it. It's monopolistic, unregulated, greedy, giant tech corporations that made the internet shitty.

    • Exactly, early social media was tons of fun. It was like the early internet but easier since anyone could make a profile with any info.

      Then it had to be monetized. They had to glue eyeballs via attention, no matter what kind. Now it’s all rent seeking, innovation is 100% about what can produce an immediate return, no care for the long term. The grift economy…

      It was not social media, that was about the people. It’s what the social media companies did in search of dollars that did it in. Greed. Full stop.

  • I feel like it's a mix of quite a few things, social media is DEFINITELY a big part of the problem but the monetisation of EVERYTHING is the main problem.

    When the Internet was becoming more mainstream around the world (late 90s) most people who put content on there didn't do it for money, they did it just to share knowledge/thoughts or just be part of a small niche community.

    This meant while there was less content it was more meaningful, and it got to the point quickly as it didn't need to show you ads etc.

    Recipie sites show this perfectly, people used to just post family recipes in cooking forums, now it's all personal blogs riddled with ads splattered between the person's life story and multiple requests to subscribe to related guff.

    Ultimately the goal of the Internet shifted from "sharing knowledge/communicating" to "show as many ads as possible". This makes 90% of each site filler to stop you getting to the 10% too quickly, so you get snagged on ads etc.

    This is why AI is great for companies, they can put in the important 10% and have it make up the 90%, but it's just adding more noise to the Internet.

    Also pair this problem with search engines that now take advantage of the noise to provide "summary" blurbs which mean you don't even visit the sites directly so they don't get the revenue, the search engines do, I think there is a term for this "one click results" or something.

    Its such a shame, I loved the Internet from like 1995-2005, you could search for something and get really good information and facts on the subject quickly. Now the same sort of things are lost amongst the filler sites that just aggregate information and regurgitate it as their own, or just out uninformed opinions (maybe even AI results) as content as if it's from experts etc.

    I could go on for ages on the subject as there are so many facets to the problem but I can't see any real solutions, it's just a midden heap.

    • So I will preface my comment with the fact that I hate Internet ads and do everything within my power to block and/or avoid them. Aside from being annoying they're a blatant security and malware risk, and I avoid them for that reason alone.

      That being said, hosting websites gets pretty expensive pretty fast when lots of people come to your site, especially with the advent of much higher bandwidth media that goes along with better quality images and video.

      In my opinion the fact that the majority of people just have an expectation that everything online should be free is THE problem. I was there when the Internet was free and open and without ads. That was the culture, and the root of the issue we have today is that that culture is the foundation of the general expectation that it should continue to be so.

      But that's not sustainable with the costs involved in hosting today. Shit costs money yo, why should other people bear that so you can search for recipes for free without it being annoying for you?

      The fact that nobody is willing to pay for content via subscriptions or paid apps is literally why the ad-based model is the overwhelming majority of the Internet, and apps, and why data collection/sales is so rampant.

      Web development and running a webpage is not easy. Even for those that are skilled enough that it's easy for them, it takes a ton of time. Usually multiple people's time for any site with enough visitors to make it a good site. App development is hard and takes a skill set that requires a lot of training or time investment to learn. Why should all that go for free for you?

      Until people are willing to pay for content they find valuable the Internet will be a hell hole ridden with ads. YouTube ads are awful, but do you have any idea how much it costs to run YouTube? You think someone should just absorb that out of the goodness of their hearts? Ridiculous.

      The goal of the Internet is still to share information and communicate, but all the hardware and bandwidth and time costs real dollars, and the only way for most sites to recoup that is via ads because people just won't pay anything if given an option, they'll just go to another site that has free content, because there's SO MUCH stuff that you can generally find what you want, for free with ads, somewhere else.

      There's only two possible solutions that I see:

      1. everyone starts being willing to pay for content they find valuable. I don't see this happening. There's too many people that share your opinion without taking into account what it costs to actually run a modern website.
      2. some complicated type of system that directly pays websites for use, based off of usage from people. I think this is almost too complicated to implement that it's likely impossible with today's Internet. If we want to also maintain privacy/anonymity when surfing I can't see how this can ever work - so unless we have some future system where people are uniquely identifiable on the Internet, and then some additional system that somehow "fairly" compensates websites for traffic from users, this won't happen. It would need to involve ISPs, their customers, and web site owners in some coordinated payment system to work.

      Not to sound too preachy but to me your comment comes off as super entitled.

      I pay for apps that I think are valuable, even ones with no cost like Signal. Because I value what they provide. I subscribe to sites that I find valuable enough to do so when it's an option. I abhor data collection and ads and I fight them without prejudice. But even I don't think I pay enough directly to offset how much I cost providers, I'm sure I don't, but that's mostly laziness because it's a pain to pay every site directly so I donate to the ones I really appreciate and use heavily. If I could pay my ISP for my link and then have a direct credit system that throws dollars and cents directly into website coffers as I use them, that would be great - but I don't want to give up my privacy either, so.... Yeah.

      Long story short, ad-based content is going nowhere until there's a fundamental shift in either people or how the Internet operates.

      • This is a fundamentally flawed take on this issue, internet is NOT a product, it is a platform where product (content) is hosted, or a platform where other platform is hosted which in turn hosts other products (content).

        When was the last time you saw an ad for McDonald's Big Mac™ or LFS Aquarium's hang in the back fish tank pump on Steam? You don't.

        That's because there are infinitely many different ways to run a business on the internet, and as a platform the internet does not inherently require you to go one specific way or the other. Yet they chose mass ads and search engine manipulation that augment mass ads because it is the most cost effective way to maximize profit at the detriment of the entire ecosystem.

        The culture that on the internet you do not expect to make direct monetary transactions, in order to have access to anything on the internet at all is NOT the problem, rather the problem is a culture of endlessly and infinitely maximizing profit no matter what it takes. And this culture had a chance to lead to wide scale actions that are fundamentally ditremental to the entire internet because the internet was made into a capitalism heaven with practically no regulations at all, the only thing that keeps capitalism in check.

      • You've never run a website or a server have you. Servers today cost almost nothing. You can get a high quality virtual private server for $4/month or run it in a closet at your house for free on an old laptop. That can handle thousands of simultaneous website visitors for everything except a huge video streaming service. A recipe site would cost absolutely nothing out of pocket. You are seriously overestimating the costs of these things because the big tech companies propagandize the public. But you may notice that none of the big publicly traded tech companies actually ever say how much they spend on servers specifically - because they don't want the public to know how low the number is. Except for Wikipedia that is: out of >$100M in annual spending, <2% gets spent on hosting costs.

        Web development and running a webpage is not easy.

        It was easy enough in the late 90s for millions of teenagers to figure it out and make their own web pages and easy enough for millions more to get their MySpace page to sparkle. You are over estimating how hard this stuff is. It's not hard as evidenced by how many people in the last generation successfully did it.

        The overall problem with your post is how often you refer to things online as "content". It never used to be "content". They just shared their writing, their opinion, their art. There is still a desire to do that! But years ago readers found things via a "web" which was free (clicking links is free) but today they find things via private algorithms which inject ads. That's what went wrong.

      • The Internet used to operate fine before this ad riddled slop was spoon fed to us.

        I'm pretty sure back in the day you would get some ads on geocities sites and other free Web hosts, and it was fine, I don't expect ads to vanish, you are making out like it's an all or nothing proposition.

        The paradigms for "content" is all wrong now, rather than the ads being needed to fund the content, the content is produced as a way to keep eyes on ads.

        There are literally design/ux guides around how to best waste a users time to get more ads shown without getting them to leave, click bait shouldn't even be a thing.

        Now you can say "this is why we need to support people so they don't need to do this", but I don't feel they do NEED to, they choose to do this as it maximises income, but why do you need to get paid for every thing you do?

        Its like people used to Stream and make YT vids because they enjoyed it, uploading new vids whenever there was a reason to, not because some algorithm required it.

        I'm not against people making a living from YT or streaming, or even the Internet, but there is a difference between someone who enjoyed doing something and made it big vs people who just want to make money and YT is the vehicle for it.

        Too much of society is focused on money.

        The Internet used to feel like a university with clever people sharing knowledge and discussing all manner of topics, with some fun student bars to hang out and chat.

        Now it feels like a noisy bazzar full of pick pocketers and stall vendors with fake smiles yelling at you to support them and buy their merch (and or their sponsors).

        Its a cess pit.

      • I have a little bit of that frustration with people not wanting to subscribe / donate to things, but I think there’s a very reasonable cause for that: Income disparity.

        In the end, be it video game design building towards F2P live services or TV being terrible slop, a lot of it boils down to that issue: So much of your audience has so little to give. In a functioning economy, the money would cycle around a little more.

  • Social media back then was making stuff you thought was cool and having friends and other weirdos across the Internet also enjoying the same things as you.

    Social media today is juicing the algorithm to generate the most views, regardless of whether you like the content you're producing or not.

    • The algorithm(s) and "For You" pages I think have done more damage to my ideal internet than anything else ever has.

      I have a feeling that someday in the future we'll also see that the algorithm was also responsible for damage to the human mind and society as well.

    • Social media back then were also referred to as social NETWORKS. A network implies collaboration and interactivity, media are more linear, having a sender and a recipient.

      • Im talking further back before people started calling them "social networks".

  • I don't blame social media at all. The Internet was, and still is, a communications platform. Some form of "social media" has always existed on the internet even if they were not called that back then.

    I blame doing shit for the sole purpose of making money to be what has fucked up the internet. At least it's only fucked on the surface. The real Internet still exists, it's just not right out in the open where any random normie can find it.

  • social media has destroyed the spirit of the internet?

    I’ve known Lemmy for a few hours and I feel like I’m back in the early spirit of the internet.

    I mean, Lemmy is social media. You might dislike centralized social media or something, but...

  • Social media is a great idea, honestly. What's ruined it is the same thing that ruins everything - money men.

  • Which Douglas Rushkoff book is this concept again? I've lost track.

    The internet keeps dying again and again. It started as a research project turned into a way to aid research. Then the sphere grew as nerds found a space to connect with other nerds. It was a community space where people knew each other. The only big source of trouble was each year, in September, when a new crop of kids gained access to the internet at their college. They had to be educated in the social structures and ethos of the culture they were stepping into.

    Then, in the early nineties, the spirit of the internet died, in the Eternal September, as ISPs encouraged non-nerds to enter the cyber world. The community was flooded with more new people than could ever be trained to follow the cultural standards that had been established, and so they simply overwhelmed the capacity of the society to maintain itself.

    Then those people began creating a new culture, a multiculture, with communities and sites forming around anyone with a bit of passion they wanted to share with the world wide web. People taught themselves web development just to share pictures of their families and poetry about their favorite trees.

    But then, the spirit of the internet died. Advertisers wanted to take advantage of the new space to which everyone seemed to be devoting so much attention. They started monetizing sites. Creating sites became less and less about sharing your passion, and more and more about generating ad revenue.

    And the internet persisted. Despite the disgust of the users, nothing seemed to stop the influx of capital into the community. And then came encryption, allowing people to even buy and sell things online. The internet died again, becoming a giant mall, a place you went to find stuff to buy rather than people to talk to.

    And then came social media. It took the idea loved by so many of the early pioneers of the internet, that everyone could have their own site, dedicated to whatever they loved most, and centralized it. Friendster, sixdegrees, MySpace, and so on. With this change, the spirit of the web died again, commercializing even the idea of your personal page, your digital representation of yourself.

    It has died. It will die again. Nothing can be relied upon.

  • Yup. It discouraged people from being anonymous and made stupid website accounts be extremely valuable to people.

    So it's not about having a conversation with people it's about saying the right things so your account becomes more popular. You don't want to change your opinion on anything because people are following your account because they liked the thing you've said in the past. A stupid website account is a major part of your identity and your past opinions are also part of your identity.

    So something that might've been just some weird phase in a small part of your life becomes a calcified part of your identity. The stupid shit you said in the past is part of who you are forever.

    There's pressure to get out your opinion to get out your "hot take" before everyone else, so that you'll get all of the attention instead of someone else who got their hot take before you did. Hot takes are obviously going to be poorly thought out and people in a rush to get them out are easily manipulated. Then they get calcified and it results in people on willing to die on some dumb hill.

    Because of all of this, people got dumbed done to the point where social media is basically just prison rules now. Gotta join some gang to survive, the gangs are determined by ethno-religious identity and survival is all about making your gang stronger than the other gangs. It would be funny if this nonsense didn't leak into reality, but since a lot of people's social media identity is a major part of their real life identity, all of the internet nonsense impacts the real world.

  • I think you're confusing social media and late stage capitalism. Social media hasn't done anything to anyone, capitalism has used social media to further its own ends.

  • In its Facebook and onward phase, yes I agree. Prior to that we had this wonderful site called Livejournal where you could privately blog to a select group of friends, and it was the absolute best way to brain dump, have people give you real advice, and make the best online friends. Yes it had much controversy when it was bought by a Russian company, I can point you to a podcast if you want more detail on that, and certainly there was drama sometimes, but I would give a lot to just talk to my friends as a group that way again and really know each other deeply that way again, and other than the odd very ignorable ad, you weren't forced to be part of an algorithm or AI horseshit or fake news or verified accounts or any of that garbage. You could buy a permanent account for 100 dollars for the added features, but that was basically started to keep the site running after it took off. It really was beautiful and helpful and loving and felt organic and true for that time.

    Have you ever noticed how hard it is for novels or TV or any other fictional platform to include anything about smartphones or using social media? When it is mentioned it feels very awkward and forced into the narrative.

  • I'm not old enough to have known the old internet, but the photo- and video-based social media never felt attractive to me. The only social media that I used was Reddit, but now I'm here. I appreciate the genuine people speaking their own mind for the sake of speaking around here, instead of the vapid, superficial and clout-chasing ""people"" (read: [fascist] bots) of other websites.

205 comments