US question: Would you approve of your state seceding from the Union, declaring independence from the United States? I think California, Oregon, and Washington would, and probably Colorado too.
Californian here, bye Felicia. I'm fucking done with my hard earned money going towards ungrateful backwoods idiots that actively hate me, my state, and my neighbors because they're told to by thuh teevee, yet don't realize it. I'm done subsiding hatred for the sake of it, because "it's the right thing to do." I'm done being at the political whim of people that can't spell potato. I have a lot of heart for my countrymen, but considering far too many of them hate us for reasons they don't even understand, I don't see the point anymore.
I just hope they automatically give former residents citizenship. I'm stranded out in the badlands for now.
This throws under the bus the many many non republicans in places gerrymandered such that the minority can continue it's rule. My life would probably get better, but only at their expense as more and more solvent states leave the union. I'm not willing to 'punish' those people for the crime of being born in a impossibly corrupt district.
Why did democrats not stop the gerrymandering? Why are there so many laws that should not exist still there?
And that outdated electoral college, smells like the fourth republic in france IMO.
Because democrats have found a way to benefit from their own misuses of the law as well, so you can see how this leaves the people trying to change this with impossible choices they have to suffer consequences of even if they make the best one. It takes a lot of fight to stand up and keep pushing through that, and those are exactly the folk I'm proud to call my country-kin
Democrats do gerrymandering too. Basically without gerrymandering, the power would shift about 4% in Democrats favor. Enough to shift power in the House, but not as much as people think.
(That statistic comes from a video I watched a while ago, and could be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt. I’m not an authority on this matter.)
It was long and slow and by the time it was clear what was happening it was well underway.
I'm someone who grew up in ohio as it happened and it was subtle. But we eventually passed constitutional amendments banning gerrymandering, but congress ignored us. And as it happened bit by bit we left. I stayed until it was clearly about to get unsafe for folks like me (I left a few months ago), and democrats are still fighting there. But political polarization is strong and a lot of coastal Republicans have moved in because its nearly impossible for them to lose there at this point in anything except single issue votes on constitutional amendments
I'm not so sure. Once the Republicans no longer have the democrats to fight against, they will fight against each other. This might happen as well in the leaving blue states, but I feel like the democrates don't hold as big of a majority in most of them. So they are already used to it. And they aren't so much the party of fire and brimstone. So more likely they would try to do all the social reforms and just fall on thier faces.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I don't think the population is as hopelessly divided as the social media spaces make it out to be, but at the same time, the federal government looks more and more unrecoverable from corporate interests and back to the people every single day. It's probably past the point of return, excepting major societal shakeup.
It feels like there may come a point where the states that are large enough to be countries on their own start looking into any mechanisms that would allow them separation, just to be able to run themselves without federal interference and incompetence.
No. Imagining an independent future for any state (including California and Texas) is pure cope. The states are so interdependent that attempting to secede would be ruinous for the state in question.
The only exceptions I can think of are Alaska and Hawaii, which might be able to survive if they found another country to keep them supplied and economically connected.
Washingtonian here, I've been saying this should happen for like 8 years now lmao
The marriage isn't working. Let it go.
We have had a name for it for awhile, my fellow Washingtonians call the Washington/Oregon/California union 'Cascadia'. Wouldn't be such a bad idea.
Fuck yeah! Cascadia! Let us stop funding this awful government and actually put our taxes towards improving people's lives
Absolutely, and I'm about ready to start identifying as that over American 🫠.
I usually think of BC being part of it, too, cause we're so similar culturally, and we hang out on each other's side of the made up invisible line all the time.
One can dream!
If you don’t take AZ and NV with you, you will get your Colorado River water cut off and lose a lot of farming power. That might even require UT. Unless it’s only Northern California included, in which case you still lose that agriculture, and possible land based trade lines to Mexico. It’s not a clean and pretty separation.
I'm at the point where I think we should peacefully dissolve the Union entirely. Just grant all 50 states full independence. Let the states come back together in whatever new nation or combination of nations they want.
Look at the current state of our politics. Step back and really look at it. Every political system relies ultimately not on a constitution, but on the good faith of the people actually governing. Look at how the current president is wiping his ass with every check and balance built into the system. Words and laws don't matter, there's always a bad faith interpretation that can allow the president to seize more and more power. And the Supreme Court is openly giving broad sweeping authority to Republican presidents while severely curtailing the power of Democratic presidents. Bribery is legal, and both parties are completely captured by the wealthy. Oh, and every last scrap of freedom, privacy, and autonomy are being torn down in the path of an ever-expanding surveillance panopticon.
I'm sorry. But by the time your political culture decays so far to allow this level of dysfunction, there's no saving it. Our constitution is a woefully out-of-date obsolete document that should have been scrapped generations ago. And it was made difficult to amend by people who had no idea how important amending it would later be. It was built for the compromises of the 1780s, not the compromises of the 2020s. We need to go through a new process of Constitution creation, potentially multiple such processes, and come back together based on new compromises that reflect the reality of the 21st century.
This nation cannot be saved. We need a peaceful national divorce. The alternative is likely something far worse, as we hurdle inexorably towards a second civil war.
Note: obviously there are practical difficulties with dissolving a nation. When this comes up, people love to hand wring about the national debt or how military assets will be dissolved in this kind of scenario. These are important but obvious concerns. But national myopia blinds us here. Nations have peacefully divided countless times through history. These matters are always handled through some negotiation process. American exceptionalism blinds us to our possible futures, simply because we are unwilling to look beyond our own borders for inspiration.
I think the only reason states have not truly waged war on each other is that we are part of a union. That's just my opinion, but many states would simply begin to fail without the feds redistributing wages from states that have good industry and gdp.
Once they don't get, they will start to try to take, and that fire would spread faster than it could be put out. Again all imo. But us Americans are "a bit shit" to eachother already, to borrow a British phrase.
I actually read this, unusual for me. I appreciate your take, and while your reasons are real concerns, I'm not in agreement with your solution.
Sure? Balkanization seems like a good way to speed up the process of the Empire collapsing.
plus there is the bonus of schadenfreunde, since they always want to balkanize countries that happen to stand in their path.
Balkan are the greatest thing ever.
I support balkanizing the US
It worked wonderfully for the actual Balkans and the Caucasus region
California could pull this off, given its industry, agriculture, and Pacific seaports. New York, where I live, has lost too much industry and agriculture to be self-sufficient. Joining Canada, though, could help assuage some of those deficits.
New York has quite a bit going for it. I think we can stand up for ourselves. I think Jersey, Connecticut, and Vermont would join us right out of the gate. I'd certainly support secession.
Additionally, NY plus CA seceding would put way too much pressure on the remainder for the rest of the states to manage the federal government. If Texas secedes for the opposite reasons, that's the end of it.
I speak for all NJ and say "sure fuck it let's go ny" and then I get into the concerns of "who is now in control of the port authority"
We have a lot of fucking idiots though
There's one big fatal flaw to that though. Water. California doesn't have enough.
It really does come down to this. They would be outright screwed.
Eh, California is mostly water independent. Most of the water that is “imported” comes from the Colorado River and is used for the least productive and least necessary agriculture in the state. Yeah, figuring out how to handle however much water would be lost if California were to secede would be an issue, but it wouldn’t be an impossible situation.
Sorry but Cali is rich as fuck, they’d figure out water if need be.
Californian. No.
It wouldn't solve any problems that can't be solved by other means, and it would create new problems that we haven't had to worry about before. It'd be a net loss for everyone involved.
We'd have to spend a fortune on defense.
We'd suffer massive losses from being cut off from interstate trade agreements.
We'd have to deal with massive immigration issues.
We'd probably get our shit pushed in from all the federal military bases within the state.
I think it's waaaay easier to just oust the current leadership and remove all the Congress members that aided and abetted.
I live in Oregon, I'd prefer it if Oregon joined Canada as a province, or like Washington and Oregon together. I don't think it's realistic. There's a lot of unanswered questions of how things would work but I have daydreamed about it.
Indiana. We'd fail so hard and so fast that I literally cannot imagine it. People are nuts. It'd be instant MAGA-flavored Mad Max if they felt like they had an excuse to preemptively defend themselves with their guns across the countryside.
Alabama. Not enough federal money in the world to keep that state afloat.
If they split from the Union, everyone starves.
Yes. In fact, I've decided to take a leap of faith and join the California National Party, which you can all check out here: CNP website. I am sick of the usual Republicans vs Democrats. Everytime one party is in power, we are constantly worrying about the loss of civil and human rights. Lets start with a clean slate. If you are a California resident, at least check out their party platform. Also, in 2026, there will be a gubernatorial candidate for CNP. His name is Sean Forbes.
If having human rights is dependent upon who's in power at the moment, you don't have human rights.
Right. Which is why I want to break free from the usual bullshit.
A single party like Mexico’s PRI party isn’t the answer either…
There are Nations with more than 2 parties
but mexico has got way more parties than pri, so much that most candidates winning elections do so with a broad alliance. in fact since 2000 pri only had a single term.
I’m not sure where you got that we only want one party in an independent California? Once CNP successfully fights for independence, then other parties can spring up. For example, in South Africa, the African National Congress were the big fighters against apartheid. No they are just another (corrupt) political party. Another example is the Indian National Congress. Members of that party fought for independence from the UK. Now, its just another political party, and they have not had any sort of power since 2014. CNP would have a place in an independent California. But the future after that, up in the air.
Coloradan. Only if a neighboring State does, because if not, we are neighboring other borders and we would be landlocked without food or water imports. Its either all Pacific and Front Range States agree we have to split, or none of us can.
Our most populous cities, Denver and CO Springs, are below the mountains, and are screwed in a combat scenario.
I don't see Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, or Kansas doing so willingly.
In American balkanization I imagine yall would be a battleground of the literal variety. Colorado and new Mexico would want to join Pacifica and Nevada, Arizona, Wyoming, and Montana likely won't. But also you're valuable enough to justify putting up a stink for
New Mexico went Kamala. Border state.
As a US citizen and Oregon resident, absolutely.
But I don't honestly foresee it being possible or happening.
My tinfoil hat says they'd try and probably succeed at triggering "The Big One"
Fuck it why not. This country is proving to be a global liability due to its structure, size, and lack of codified protections for its own handling.
Absolutely
If the Union completely dissolved and each state had to function as nation, it would be a massive boom for the oligarchs. They already have more money than most states.
I imagine they'd form blocs, one centred on California obviously, one on the other coast, and a few in between
Wouldn't work out. World's too complicated for simple answers like that.
Leaving, even if it would produce a viable nation, would involve leaving a lot of people in the lurch. There's people in conservative states who need the counter balance of blue states to slow down their government's trend to self destruction and fascism.
Even though it's increasingly frustrating with how feeble that resistance is, it does keep things like banning gay marriage in the "difficult to pass" territory and not the "a few compromises" one.
Counterpoint, that’s actually not the blues states jobs, our job is to take care of our state(s) just like others states job is to take care of themselves.
As a Washingtonian I would be thrilled if the west coast became independent but there’s no movement towards it and of course the road getting there is unknowable, but as an abstract concept it’s lovely.
Red states have done nothing but hold places like where I live back, they’re actively dragging us down with them and it’s wildly unfair to ask me and my people to subsidize states that relish in our destruction and aim to drown us along side themselves. Red states don’t deserve to be subsidized, let them live with the consequences of their actions without the comfort blue states afford them and see how long those red state governments last.
...so what about the minorities in those red states who are stuck there because of their financial or familial situations, and who lack the power to influence politics?
i want new england to join canada T_T
You will all be required to learn French
Small enough price to pay
the owl already got it's hooks in me a long time ago.
plus my goal is always to move to montreal and have a queer indie bookstore :)
Same. Individual states seceding would get nowhere. New England as a whole? That could work lmao
trumpistan leaves, enters techbronia.
I like the idea of it, but California is a cash cow and the US would never let that cash cow get away.
What you are proposing would start a North American war deadlier than any that has ever been seen. Everyone thought Texas was dumb for talking about secession, but now that other states don’t want to be part of the union, people act like it is a serious idea. It isn’t. Never has been.
In the words of Ben Franklin, “we must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”
Everyone knew Texas talking about it was dumb because they're not self sufficient
California actually is, and if we're hated by the rest of the country anyway, we'll just go ahead and leave. Let the rest states have fun paying for shit without us
Define self sufficient.
California is not self sufficient in my opinion. They may have a lot of money, but they rely heavily on interstate commerce and trade routes for their prosperity. Taxes and cost of living are already high, and those things would explode if cut off from trade. The federal government won’t hesitate to use their leverage to keep other countries from supporting the newly declared independence of California.
Texas is not self sufficient either, but I’m not advocating for their secession.
Put simply, we need fewer borders, not more of them. Any state that thinks they can take their money and run will find themselves brutalized by the federal government, taxed to oblivion by neighboring states, and experiencing an exodus of companies who are based there. It is the path to destruction, not liberation.
I'm not American, and I think you should all secede. Just like EU is a shit and quebec should be free.
You would have more than half the population of the country plunged into abject poverty. West Virginia would look like an apocalyptic hillbilly hellscape.
New England. Maybe with NY, you could have New New.
Do states even have a legal way to secede?
Didn't have a way to legally secede from Britain
But this time there would be no ocean between the two sides.
No. A full breakdown here https://youtu.be/1dhvry6E0jA
No but there's no law against expelling a state from the union. Kind of a reverse secession if you can piss trump off enough for him to actually do it (no law saying that only Congress can expel them, so it would go to the courts).
See: American civil war
To take this in a different direction, legal or not (considering the "higher power" generally gets to define what is and isn't legal and might do so for its own benefit rather than in the best interest of everyone, if there even is such a thing), how can it be determined if a subset of a power structure breaking away from that power structure is a good thing or bad thing? What arguments other than "we'll use force" are there to support a region needing to remain under the thumb of a power they no longer wish to serve?
Only as a last resort and everything else has been tried.
Personally, absolutely. California subsidizes so many of the red states in this country, and it sucks, because we don’t get the representation we should. We have 10% of the population, but only get 2% of the representation in the Senate.
That being said, I am completely aware that this is Putin’s goal, and that is why there is a lot of discussion online from Russian bot accounts about this.
It sucks when your goals align with Putin’s, because he is such a monster.
I am not a bot, not a Russian asset.
I think.
If just my state left, and I could leave to another state, that would be pretty good. Two Republican senators gone, roughly 15 net house reps gone, and an influx of dem refugees like me into neighboring states.
Texas could legit try to make a go of it as an independent nation. It would be a disaster for my family though.
A bulkanized US would certainly be good for the planet, assuming it survived the preliminary civil wars as nation state boundaries are created and alliances made with Canada and Mexico. Who gains control of all the nukes would be a big question.
While many of my family members have served in the past and do now, the US is not the end all, be all.
I pledge allegiance to a country without borders, Without Politicians
No. We'd be overrun by federal troops and decimated within a week. If we could secede peacefully? We (Wisconsin) would probably need an alliance with Minnesota and Michigan to survive.
If we could do it in a peaceful and democratic way that doesn’t lead to an immediate second civil war, yeah, I’d probably vote for it. It seems to have worked out well enough for Czechia and Slovakia.
No, because it would lead to civil war. Do I wish it could happen? Yes. But is it realistic? No.
I don't support it, only because my state wouldn't be seperating to join the "good" side
We're leaving the east coast? I think they deserve a path too
Yes
No.
I'm cool wit dat
Its part of why I moved out west. That and fear of persecution in the Midwest.
The first step is refering to yourself as a member of your state and not an American I guess
I usually refer to myself as Cascadian
Rest of the states would need to agree sadly, and that's not happening.
Yeah. Horse nomads for Pritzker
Only if there's a legal way to do it, which is at this point, a constitutional amendment. The civil war made it clear secession is not an option.
Wouldn't Texas be at the top of the list of states most likely to exit?
Shit's gonna look like the Holy Roman Empire a decade from now...
CA should be split into two.
No. There is no mechanism to allow this. The union is perpetual, and cannot be brought to an end. A state can no more leave than US than a city or a house.