2d ago

Patriotism vs Nationalism

183 comments

Patriotism is just a nice word people invented to be proud of their genocidal and colonialist country without feeling too bad about it.

um, no... Americocentric again
Nationalism has to do with pride in a shared cultural identity, whereas Patriotism is pride for one's country.
in other countries, there are strong cultural ties that bond people together. shared language. a relationship to the land. hundreds if not thousands of years of history. some countries have dozens of such groups.
nationalism is a person from that group taking pride in that identity. patriotism is taking pride in your country as a whole. so for example, you can be proud to be Gujarati, and you can be proud to be Indian.
now, in the United States, there really isn't a national identity beyond shopping malls and jingoism. so i can see how nationalism is rarely seen positively. all you get of it is nazis and fake irish frat bros.
but, no, really I think patriotism is a far bigger problem than nationalism. one's language is your flesh and blood, it's who you are. what the fuck does a country mean to you? the people who lock you up?

If your whole identity is based on the fact you where born at some location on this planet, you really need some self reflection and deprogramming
- I was within these borders while I crawled out of a vagina. it's one of my greatest achievements and I'll base my personality on that

Strange semi related old person story -- back in highschool, one of our teachers had the class write essays on whether nationalism was good or bad. We were then given an option to either present our papers, or do a debate exercise with a kind of round robin pro or con. So you'd partner with 1 other person, debate if it was good or bad, then groups of 4 doing the same, until it was the whole class. In my paper and in my discussions, I had used a similar approach as this comic -- basically just establishing what nationalism was vs patriotism, and drawing nazi's in as an example too. No one in those discussions contested that Nazi's were nationalists -- but they still argued in favour of it.
By the end, I was the only person who thought nationalism was overall 'bad'. The tide had turned in the groups of 8 stage. Because a hot girl had declared her support for nationalism. That's all it took for people to like/excuse nazis, even back in the early 2000s. An excuse.
- #JustEvolvedChimpanzeeThings

The only good fascist is a dead fascist

fuck either of them.
no loyalty to any state.

This is bullshit.
Even if the technical definition of "patriotism" is all of these good things, it doesn't matter because everyone thinks it means all of those bad things.
- Yeah, people try to push this patrotism = good, nationalism = bad thing, but it is meaningless, because patriotism has long since become what Reinhart Koselleck would call a "Grundbegriffe", basically a universal term which everybody has accepted is good, but which everybody interprets and uses in a variety of different (and clashing) interpretations. It is a term you use to invoke that you are on the right side, regardless of what side you are on, because it just means "good".
  
  Additionally, overt patriotism is usually nationalism.
  Looking at this meme in the first panel, pride in who you are eventually becomes pride in who you aren't if you feel it strongly enough.

And the brainwashing goes on and on..
- The word "Republican" ~~actually comes from~~ is used today as a decolonial form of Nationalist movement, and they are usually Socialists. Elsewhere in the world, "Republican" still means something actually useful for human goddamn dignity. Since nobody sold out the premise like an American Colonizer party.
  You gonna tell an Irish Nationalist that they can't celebrate or defend their people even as "Unionist" Pogroms ravage Catholic parts of Northern Ireland?
  You gonna tell an Indigenous Nationalist that their people can't have the land granted to them by treaties or stand for their people's sovereign water supply?
  You gonna tell a Jewish Nationalist that they can't be Anti-Zionist, and build their idea of the Jewish Nation and its Diasporic people on standing up against oppression?
  These illiterate, domesticated-ass liberals still think "nation = country = state", like this is 2nd grade. The closest they get to reading is a twitter post, my essaying protects me from their eyes. And they want to talk about what Nationalism is.
  Meanwhile Patriotism? Is bipartisan. And it is Stan-ing for a State even as it commits a Genocide. Fuck all of that, and fuck your state. May Trump's incompetence burn the US's ability to inflict violence upon the rest of the world.
  
  he word “Republican” actually comes from a decolonial form of Nationalist movement, and they are always the Left party. Elsewhere in the world, “Republican” still means something actually useful for human goddamn dignity. Since nobody sold out the premise.
  It has nothing to do with that at all. They are called Republicans for historical reasons, but the name has long since lost all relevance to any specific policies, it is just a name for a ~~sports~~ political team. Other political parties in other places are called Republicans for other localised reasons.
  Republic stems from the Roman res publica, but in modern political science it just means a state where the office of head of state isn't hereditary, ie. basically not a monarchy. This was a key factor in the 18th century, since most European (and globally as well) states were monarchies, so being a republic did mean a drastic change in political system compared to the norm. Not so much anymore, since most states in the world are republics, but they have very drastically different political systems, some are dictatorships others democracies.
  
  The word "republic" comes from res publica. Public thing.
  Indeed, the meaning has been fully distorted, like anything else in the US, and sold to people with no moral, voted by people with no moral.

Patriotism isn't a good thing at all.

Existed just 4 years
Lost a war againt the USA
Prouldy waved 150 years later
- But muh heritage...

Both are shit. It seems like american culture in general is just lesser-evilism.

Nationalism is only good when people are fighting colonialism, e.g. palestine or british era India.
- "Nationalism is the best defense against invasion" is something fascists and rebellions against empires agree on.

Office meme, they're the same picture. The world no longer needs people who are willing to die for, or equally kill for, their country
- Yes, but climate change, water wars and possibly a fundamental change to world order are likely. One might not get a choice, if they prefer to continue living in freedom and peace.
  Doesn't mean we need patriots though.
- Yes if you can convince everyone in the world of this simultaneously, we'll end all wars.
  Do you think Vladimir Putin will agree with your sentiment?

Both are tribalism of different levels of intensity. Our brains are predisposed for us-them mentality, some stronger than others, some can leave it behind others never will. It's also the most exploitable feeling in the history of our species, with fear may be the close contender.
Obviously a government embracing tribalism leads to horrid shit (everyone without an armband knows it) BUT ignoring it completely allows something else snake its way into that void. If you're lucky its something vegetarian like football hooliganism, if you-re not -- pan-nationalism, religious zealotry, whatever the 4chan incel shit is, people who can't or won't leave tribal mentality will find a dirt to roll in.
IMHO it is worth considering implementing a civic religion a-la french republicanism. Yes it can be a gateway to nationalism, but it also lets tribal minded people wave their flags and "guard the civic values" or whatever while the rest of us continue our lives in peace. As a bonus it improves civic participation and if you're attacked -- well there's already something for you to rally around.

Nobody should be patriotic with the genocidal settler colony that is the USA.

Both are stupid, especially if you live in the USA, where your government will let you be rendered homeless and dead in the street if you can't pay enough money into the capitalist machine.
What's to be proud of?
- Biggest prison population!
- National parks, innovation, highest level of freedom of speech (not anymore, lol, but ya know). Actually admitting to our racism and bigotry instead of pretending it doesn't exist like European countries do, and instead trying to tackle the issues. Even if failing. A diverse population.
  
  Patriotism is being a Simp for a State that doesn't give a fuck about you.
  National Parks
  Stolen indigenous land?
  innovation
  So... Unless you can define what this means, I have to assume it involves Chinese manufacturing.
  freedom of speech
  Unless you're on the actual Left that Democrats want to suppress and Republicans want to execute.
  actually admitting our racism and bigotry [ . . . ] even if failing
  Yeah... Uh... Im going to have to disagree - I see empty gestures made out of a fetish for decorum, which is a holdover from an even older Conservatism. That's several history doctorates of a rabbit hole to unpack.
  a diverse population
  Finally, something good! I can get there with "love your neighbor" instead. No State-simping necessary
  
  Life in Europe is much better than in the US for any ethnicity.

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”
—Mark Twain

Every "nationalist" believes themselves a "patriot".
All this image does is allow you to self-soothe that you're "one of the good ones".

Patriotism is pride in your country.
Nationalism is not knowing the difference between your government and your mommy.

Nah, fuck that. Patriotism is just nationalism light.
- I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
  Nationalism fuels fascism, but I think patriotism can be a healthy pride; sort of like how one distinguishes confidence from arrogance.
  Ultimately patriotism is a neutral term and is decided upon whether you agree with your national identity in both where your nation is, and where it is heading. I naturally don't agree with either at present, and so I'm not patriotic. Some are patriotic for the wrong reasons. If we get back to our roots, then I will perhaps one day have pride in being an American again.
  
  I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
  This is so god damn funny. A hexbear tagline if I've ever seen one.
  
  if we get back to our roots
  You mean racism, sexism, and exploitation? Because that’s what our roots are.
  
  I think genuine patriotism is a bit more than what you describe. Your lack of pride in being an American is motivated by a desire for an America that is worthy of pride. To me that is still patriotism in essence even if outwardly it seems like the opposite.
- Exactly. It's the gateway drug to fascism.
  Fuck it all.
  
  Is there anything that you don't think is a gateway drug to fascism?
- So I can't be proud of being from my country? City? Neighborhood? I don't think it's so black and white unless you have another term to describe being happy about where you're from.
  
  Just be happy about where you are from.
- I have to disagree. Without at least a little pride or the want to have pride in where we come from, what incentive is there to do things like cataloging history or preserving cultures and languages. I don't think all cultures are objectively or subjectively good by any stretch, but their information, knowledge, and ritual is 100% worth cataloging and knowing, if anything just to preserve knowledge of what not to do.
  For example, the confederate south. Is it worth keeping up monuments and statues honoring the traitors? Absolutely not. Is it worth keeping knowledge of what happened so that we might not repeat it? Absolutely. Without a healthy amount of patriotism, in this case the hope that where we come from can improve, why wouldn't we just wipe away that history and pretend it didn't happen? That's a major line where it switches from patriotism to nationalism.
  But mostly it's just the want to improve where you're from that's why I believe you should have a healthy amount of patriotism. Without it, why bother doing anything at all, from protesting to ~~rioting~~ violent encouragement to do something different.
  Anyways, hope that what my overly caffeinated brain wrote down makes sense
  
  I really don't get your point. I consider myself to be an anarcho-communist and will start a volunteer year at an archaeoligical institution to see if I want to study it at a university.
  You don't need to love your country to learn about it.
  
  Why pride if interest is more than enough? A nation is inherently an invention. It creates a story why it came to be and why all the different cultures in it's territory are now "the people". I don't think you need that to be happy about where you live and/or to improve. It is also not needed to document history.
  
  You do not need to love your nation-state to want to preserve history or learn from the past.
  That is such warped logic.
- And nationalism is bad, because? Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it's extreme, but there's nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
  
  Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it's extreme, but there's nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
  What you just described, this "mild nationalism?" There's a word for that: patriotism. Nationalism is extreme patriotism.
  Nationalism: an ideology that elevates one nation or nationality above all others and that places primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations, nationalities, or supranational groups
  -Merriam-Webster Dictionary
  And when nationalism becomes even more extreme, it becomes chauvinism or jingoism.
  Chauvinism: undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged; excessive or blind patriotism; an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex
  Jingoism: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy
  When Hitler promised to build a wall around Germany to keep immigrants from diluting German culture during his campaign, that was nationalism. American isolationists were/are nationalists.
  The Republican Party in the 90s and 2000s was a nationalist party bordering on chauvinism. The party of Trump is a jingoist party that hits every definition of chauvinism at the same time.
  
  If you cannot see, why the ideology that brought us both World Wars, Russias war against Ukraine and so many more modern conflicts, was the base of colonialism and neo-colonialism, imperialism, 20th century slavery, fascism, zionism and that let us buold borders where thousands die every year, you are lost.
  
  there's nothing inherently wrong with fascism
  Can I ask what your definition of "fascism" is?
  
  Nationalism is for loser with a shit life. When you never did anything on your own, you need to preserve self esteem and you start takingbpride in things that was never in your control, like the country you're born or the color of your skin

Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people's accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
- Is there anything missing from
  "Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else?"
  ?

A long time ago I read some post that stuck with me.
It said that some people love their country the way a child loves their parent. They're perfect and smart and strong and can beat up your parent. They don't have any flaws, and can do no wrong. They're the best ever.
Other people love their country the way an adult loves a peer. They see the potential, the good, but also the flaws. They want what's best for both of them, even if it's uncomfortable and difficult. And ultimately, if the relationship becomes abusive, they won't just take it.
Conservatives often are the first one, but I think they are generally more immature. Fearful, tribal, angry.
Loving your country in the second way can be okay, I think. It can be a vehicle for improvement. People have wanted to improve their living spaces and communities for longer than we've had recorded history. It doesn't have to be toxic or zero-sum.
- I wonder what you would define "country" as. If you want to say, "love thy neighbor" then I get you. But if you're saying "love your government" then it doesn't really make much sense. You're not supposed to love the government, that's not the point of it, that's not what it's here for.
- And ultimately, if the relationship becomes abusive, they won't just take it.
  That's where the analogy fails for me. You can't leave a state unless you enter a new state, a new abusive relationship.
  People have wanted to improve their living spaces and communities for longer than we've had recorded history.
  I get when people are proud of their city or ethnicity or dialect group or religion or football club or what ever. There have always been imagined communities (communities where you don't know everyone but feel connected due to a shared identity) and that's what modern nation stated exploit. They creat a shared identity by lumping everything together, diminishing local differences to creat an artificial imagined community based on forced commonalities and destroy the plurality and diversity "home" could be.
  Thanks for listening to my TEDtalk

fuck nationalism patriotism all that shit.
Simp for community, not a heirarchical country you were taught to fall in love with.
- That's what a country is, it's a community but on a bigger scale.
- Community can suck too. Fuck collectivism. "Simp" for those individuals (actually, more accurately, for the good acts) who deserve it, and not a single person/act more.
  
  K, build your own roads and public institutions then.

Nationalism has become such a no go that nationalists will call themselves patriots but it's just a euphemism for the first
- Always has been.
  👨‍🚀🔫🏳️

Americans act like the two are separate things so they can continue to be brainwashed into being good little America #1 oorah's.
Grow up, be proud of your own achievements, hard-work, and yourself not a fucking nation state like a little proto-fash.
- Mate, I live in europe and patriotism is here, the hell you smokin?
  
  I didn't say there wasn't patriotism in Europe. I said trying to paint the two as separate things is the Seppo take.

Patriotism is often equally bad.
Humanism ftw.
- Can I interest you in The Big A™ in these trying times?
  
  The circled A
- Neither are bad, there's nothing wrong with someone who has sense of devotion for their country or someone who believe in the idea of a nation state. It's only bad when these concepts are taken to the extreme.

It's false and self serving to say all the good parts are patriotism and that's what I do but all the bad parts are nationalism and that's what they do.
All nation states are murderous vermin undeserving of respect. Holding any identity strongly - national, religious or ideological - can turn you into a destructive rube.
- A national identity based on common positive beliefs helps to keep these beliefs viable. Leaving group identity to the right is one of the reasons why it is so strong
  I can be proud that my country has free health care and still critize that the rich get better treatment
  I can be proud that my country has made it clear in its constitution that every life style and religion are the same before the state while critzing that the reality dies not adhere to this ideal
  While identity is differential to other groups it does not need to be excluding. I.e. everybody who shares our ideals is welcome here instead of people born here are superior to others
  And you can have the identity not be in difference to an other people but e.g. another time. I am proud that germany is harder for the nazis to take over than the Weimar Republic was.
  People want identity and a feeling of community and seeing that as something inherently negative os stupid and dangerously helpful to the right

I don't like how people continue to use pepe to signify the right, I have literally never seen someone use pepe as a right wing hate symbol or whatever the fuck and even if they do I don't give a shit, pepe did nothing wrong.
"(Pepe) he currently remains one of the most popular memes in the world"
Free Pepe! The most popular meme in the world is not a hate symbol unless you want it to be one, and I say it defintely isn't.
"In an interview with Esquire, Furie (creator of pepe) said of Pepe's usage as a hate symbol, "It sucks, but I can't control it more than anyone can control frogs on the Internet".[39] Fantagraphics Books, Furie's publisher, issued a statement condemning the "illegal and repulsive appropriations of the character".[40] The Anti-Defamation League, an American organization opposed to antisemitism, included Pepe in its hate symbol database but wrote that most instances of Pepe were not used in a hate-related context." - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_Frog
- The left wing is full of idiots who drown themselves in purity testing. I've seen so many morons who think that anything touched by any right wing person has to avoided like the plague otherwise you're right wing too. It's same mentality that 1st graders have about cooties. What makes this case particularly dumb is that Pepe, as well as Wojak, are meme templates made by the internet. That means they're owned by no one and they stand for nothing. They exist to portray specific emotions that people relate to, that's it.
- Pepe deserved better.
- I 100% get where you're coming from.
  At the same time, it only took one guy with one style of mustache that plenty of other people were using to ruin it for everyone else.
  
  Tell that to Michael Jordan
- Pepe did nothing wrong!
- I can understand not wanting to cede a meme to right-wing whack jobs, but the idea that you've never seen it use that way is nuts. I mean you must be actively burying your head in the sand not to have seen it use that way. Cuz it happens a lot.
  
  Where do you see it used that way?

Fuck both, honestly. I can take pride in who I am, learn history, improve my community and defend it, without tying all of those values to a nation state that can and will inevitably at some point use it's centralized, hierarchical, border-delineated power to oppress and dominate and be exactly the thing I don't want.
I'm sick of these lib takes clinging desperately to values they never bothered to fully examine because of some misplaced nostalgia, national mythology, material privilege, etc.
💗 🌸 🤗 Death to America 😎 ❤️ 💋
- Ah yes, the ignorant wisdom of the enlightened tankie
  
  Tankies do not reject the totalitarian nation state, much less hierarchy. Ideologically speaking, I'm a Bookchinite communalist. What was it about my comment that led you think I'm a tankie?

It's the same picture

I feel like all those traits from patriotism are on a venn with something else like internationalism/antipatriotism, like they can indeed be found in patriotism but are not at the heart of what it is. Like, technically, german, italian or japanese patriots fought alongside nazis. You can say your country can do better regardless of whether you support its existence or not. It's not necessary to learn from history to be a patriot, etc.
- If you don't learn from history, you're destined to repeat it.
  
  Repeating history being entirely compatible with patriotism, right ?
- Patriotism is a subjective concept. There are patriots who completely disagree with each other but still have a similar level of devotion for their country. People supporting their countries is not exactly radical. In fact, it's very common everywhere but Lemmy because this place is filled with tankies.
  
  People supporting their countries is not exactly radical.
  Well from an anti-state perspective, supporting a country that commits radical acts such as monopoly of violence is by extension radical, but i think you meant that patriotism is widely spread, and that is relatively true, at least most people have patriotic "instincts" (even though in my experience, discussing and questioning their patriotism often reveals that they are patriotic by default and could have a different position if they reflected upon it).
  it's very common everywhere but Lemmy because this place is filled with tankies.
  I'd say tankies are also patriotic, just not for USA. Fatherland is a quite important concept in post-leninism forms of authoritarian communism. From my experience, it's much more common to find anti-patriotism in libertarian communism / anarchism than in despotic communism.

Brazilian "patriots" bow to USA demands, so they're also dumb

Patriotism is a MacGuffin -
It's a feeling.
Now, you may think I'm attempting to invalidate it, but far from it. From the revolutionary war up to present - what is a 'Patriot' has been poorly defined, and left to subjective interpretation.
Forget the gaslighting Republicans have been under since the Tea-Party. Let's go back, say thirty years, to the Family Values Coalition. Or perhaps another thirty years back to McCarthyism and the HUAC. Or even further back to Strom Thurman trying to legitimize the KKK. (or else we could just recognize that the family lines in control of the narrative now, are the slave-owner families of the South.)
-Make no doubt - They think they are 'Patriots'.
People will become bellicose about what a true 'patriot' is - I tell you, don't give two flying-f*cks..
Did Thomas Paine, and Paul Revere know the impact of their actions on those days? Of course not.
And that is the way it will be with this new history. It tends to be defined by the victors, by the way. Might wanna get off your ass...
- It's more than a feeling, it's a tactic. If you want the masses on side it is another one of the tools in the box.

But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile.
- That's just wrong, patriotism is subjective. The word means having a sense of pride, support, or devotion to your country. However, this concept can interpreted in wildly different ways by different people. One person could think that patriotism means standing by your country right or wrong, but another person could think that patriotism means criticizing your country when it's done wrong. Both of these are valid forms of patriotism, it's just that one is more extreme than the other.
  
  I think one interpretation of the quote that includes the possibility of a patriotism that does not exclude criticizing wrongdoing of your country is that "my country, right or wrong" does not mean "i support everything my country does", but rather "even if i don't support some things my country does, i'll support my country generally".
  Precisely, the quote takes into account the existence of a patriotism able to recognize that a country can be wrong.
  
  Don’t argue with me. Argue with Patrick O’Brien

Yikes. Is this from the "committee to save endangered ideologies"? Which think tank came up with this lol

I will add that ethnicity, religious identification or lack thereof, or nationality doesn't exempt anyone. USA and Christianity aren't the first, only, or last to reinvent and suppress the parts of history we don't like, but we're certainly going full throttle, along with some other states and religions.

Patriotism: Pride in your country for what it does.
Nationalism: Pride in your country in spite of what it does.
- Americans fell hard into nationalism after 9/11. They just wouldn’t admit it. Half of them still have their heads in the sand.
  As an American, I personally believe that the Pledge of Allegiance is indoctrination.
  
  I remember when I first started feeling like the pledge was creepy so I decided to exercise my rights by not participating. Turns out a lot of people hate our freedoms and don't like it when people use them.
- Let me fix that for you:
  Patriotism: Pride in a nation-state.
  Nationalism: Pride in a nation-state.
  
  That's not exactly a bad thing
- America has done so few things to be proud of and so many things to be ashamed of that it’s impossible for me to feel patriotism.
  
  This is stupid, every country has done many things to be proud of and many things to be ashamed of, and America is no exception. That's just how history works. If you acknowledge only the negative and ignore the positive, then you're not acknowledging history, but a narrative.

Patriotism is great because patriotism is about loving what a country stands for.
America no longer stands for freedom and justice for all. But anyone who loved those ideas before can still stand for them now.
- False. Patriotism is simping for a state even if it hurts you.
  
  The way we defeat fascism is by rallying around shared ideas and ideals. And not by being an island of one.
- That's how it starts, but it ends in the same hell. Once you decide your country stands for something, you inevitably stop seeing how it has failed at doing that thing for centuries.
  For example, consider freedom and equality. The US had widespread slavery until the late 1800s, and even now the prison industrial slavery complex provides 100% slave labor, and most of the slaves are minorities. So when people talk about freedom and equality as a U.S. value, when they talk about the melting point, they have to pretend the slaves don't exist.
  Another way of looking at it is, "You might say your country stands for this ideal, but when we find massive examples of it failing, then you're arguing with reality. You might wish your country stood for it, but it doesn't, at least not now. Quit lying to yourself."
  
  That’s how it starts, but it ends in the same hell. Once you decide your country stands for something, you inevitably stop seeing how it has failed at doing that thing for centuries.
  This is a non-sequitur. There's nothing stopping someone from seeing what a country stands for and how it has failed to live up to those ideals. People can in fact walk and talk.
  ...So when people talk about freedom and equality as a U.S. value, when they talk about the melting point, they have to pretend the slaves don’t exist.
  No one has to ignore our history or pretend the prison industrial complex doesn't exist to understand that we stood for equality. In fact, it's the other way around. It's the people who ignore and even rewrite our history who fail to understand America is a melting pot.
  Another way of looking at it is, “You might say your country stands for this ideal, but when we find massive examples of it failing, then you’re arguing with reality. You might wish your country stood for it, but it doesn’t, at least not now. Quit lying to yourself.”
  Except there are massive examples of it succeeding. The US ended slavery and gave voting rights to women. So it is your argument arguing with reality.
  When we lose sight of the fact our country stood for something we end up in a nationalist christo-fascist dictatorship. Championing freedom and justice for all is how we stave off the division employed by fascists.
  Pretending the US didn't stand for anything is an agreement with the fascists. They believe America has always been a white christian nation state and now it is one. Your argument is agreeing with their lie. The only way to defeat the fascists is to believe in the truth.
- So if I read your comment correctly, everybody MAGA person is a real US partiot because your country stands for a corrupt, racist and predatory kleptocracy now. They sure love that.
  
  You read the comment incorrectly. MAGAts are christo-fascist nationalists of course.

Patriotism is loving your country and wanting it to prosper. Nationalism is believing your country is superior to other countries and seeing all others as adversaries.
It's the difference between working on self-improvement because you care about yourself vs. wanting to take things from others and being paranoid about them taking from you.
- That's a nice idea, and if you can maintain that distinction good for you, but the inevitable widespread consequence of loving one's country more is that one loves other countries less. And that leads to xenophobia, which in turn leads to racism.
  
  It's a think globally, act locally kind of thing. You can love your community and help people in your community without disliking other communities.
  If you love your wife, and she's obviously of some ethnicity does that mean you're racist against other ethnicities?
  The fact is everyone lives somewhere and wanting to live in a good place and working to to make where you live better doesn't mean you hate the places you can't really do anything to improve. This isn't a zero sum game, people in countries where I don't live can work to make where they live a better place too.
  Wanting to live in a good country isn't a negative emotional thing, it's actually very rational. Countries function better when people work together for the common good, and that's ultimately what patriotism is about.

For all the neo-nazis and nazis out there: Nazism is short for National SOCIALISM. As we all know, SOCIALISM is the big bad precursor of COMMUNISM!
Don't be a SOCIALIST by being a (Neo-)Nazi or their quiet supporter!
- Needs the sarcasm tag.
  
  Usually I place it, but I thought it was obvious
- This is a premier example why we need to stop using those terms altogether.
  Yes, history is cyclic, but we ought to give more credit to the zeitgeist we face today.
  Never in our history have we seen such an efficient conglomeration of religion, supremecy, and hate groups working in unison.
  They deserve new, fresh words. Something catchy to yell, as we throw molotovs at them..

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