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  • Everyone in the Expanse. Naomi, Drummer, Fred Johnson, Bobbie Draper, Chrisjen Avasarala, Monica... Obviously, Amos, Peaches, Miller, and even Holden.

    All of them do reprehensible things. Some did them and made up for it. Some still do them to win.

    • Really? Holden damn close to the platonic ideal of a reluctant hero, with a strong moral compass.

      He wobbles a bit later with all the PTSD, but generally always tries to do the right thing the best way he can.

      Naomi and Bobbi too, Naomi did bad stuff in her back story, but she's much surer of herself and her sense of right and wrong due to that. Bobbi possibly a very mild anti-hero as she can lean a little blood knight, but not quite anti-hero in my view.

      Drummer and Fred Johnson are much more morally grey, and start out as more antagonists than they end up being.

      Avasarala is similar, but she's also a magnificent foul mouthed mother. She can get anti-hero status for sure.

      Amos I think is more of a villain protagonist (dueteragonist?) than anti-hero.

      Miller is anti-hero in the Shinji Ikari type.

      • Agreed. I think Amos can rightly be called an antihero, same with Miller.

        But Holden is the archetype ‘good guy’ and everyone else is also unambiguously ‘good’ who occasionally do morally gray things for pragmatic reasons.

        Such a great show (haven’t read the books (yet) sorry!)

      • Anti-hero: the protagonist whose methods, while effective, are not openly supported or celebrated because they fly in the face of "norms."

        While I agree with your analysis on Holden. Reluctant hero, to be sure. He sure did screw over Earth and Mars on a fairly regular basis to make his points stick. He disobeyed orders and protected a Belter ship, which got him bounced from the Navy. He declined promotion so he could keep shagging the pilot of the Cant. He went alone on sending out the message that got them caught by the Donny... and that was all before shooting down a medical relief vessel, shearing off the drive section of a UNN vessel, targetlocking every ship in the Ganymede AO as he escorted the Weeping Somnambulist away. In-universe, Holden will do just about anything to advance his own ends. He's a privateer, his motives and methods transcend in-universe moralities, which we can only see because we know all the pieces. It's not 'til the Behemoth that he gains the patina of "saviour" — in contact with the dead, chosen by the protomolecule for direct communication, and having escaped death enough times to engender trust.

        For most of the others — Amos (that guy --> just walk away), Naomi (clubbing Cyn ‐‐> waking the Presence), and Alex (we don't talk about Alex) for running with Holden; Fred (stealing missiles, selling Inaros out to the Inners --> "in my quarters, stop them"), Drummer (executioner --> "speak plainly"), and Bobbie (warrior, defector, ronin, mercenary --> fucking Valkyrie) for materially supporting Holden; in-universe, they would also be regarded as Anti-Heroes until they're not because of their arcs. Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.

        Maybe "hero of the belt" = anti-hero precisely because it undercuts the frame of a "classic" hero. Much to be learned, then. Maybe I just want them to be anti-heroes because I have so much respect for these characters, their subversion of "norms" and willingness to address a greater good.

        Nice touch with the comparison between Amos and Shinji Ikari. If this had been 2 years ago, I wouldn't have known. I see it now.

        Also, Clarissa Mao?

  • After watching Andor, I guess Luthem Rael fits that title. Dude's absolutely savage. Forced to use the tools of his enemy to fight for freedom that he'll likely never experience. He sacrifices good people on order to protect the whole

    • It's also established that's he's an accelerationist. He's intentionally baiting the Empire to crackdown more brutally on dissent in an effort to forment rebellion among the common people of the galaxy. He fears that if he does not do this, there will be a day when the Empires grip is too tight to escape.

      "It will burn... Very brightly"

      In the end, he was right. The Death Star vindicates his methods. Without Luthen laying the groundwork for the Rebel Alliance, the Galaxy would have been a boiling frog and the Death Star would have led to its brutal oppression for generations.

      • He's absolutely a hero and without him the death star would've probably obliterated the rebellion (if it even existed without him). His methods aren't exactly "good" though from the perspective of good vs evil. As we see with Mon Mothma who is maybe a bit naïve and definitely doesn't approve of his methods. But I think a rebellion needs a Luthen. He knows he'll be hated by pretty much everyone, but in the end he managed to get so much done. He's the fall guy so the formal rebellion doesn't have to get their hands dirty.

  • Sam Spade, Wolverine are a couple that first come to mind; often portrayed as the cynical gunfighter private eye and war weary samurai

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