This Southern California solar farm is using retired EV batteries for storing the power and then send to the grid when needed. This way the retired batteries can extend their usefulness for several...
This Southern California solar farm is using retired EV batteries for storing the power and then send to the grid when needed. This way the retired batteries can extend their usefulness for several...
A Southern California company is showing how repurposing EV batteries for stationary storage can extend their usefulness for several years.
This Southern California solar farm is using retired EV batteries for storing the power and then send to the grid when needed. This way the retired batteries can extend their usefulness for several...::A Southern California company is showing how repurposing EV batteries for stationary storage can extend their usefulness for several years.
That’s actually an ingenious idea I hadn’t thought about. How much cheaper are these batteries once they’ve been retired? Would this be a viable option for someone running solar at home, and wanting to store the power for later use, or is a home battery still the better option?
39Yea, with a car you can't really use them once the range gets low enough
With this, a bunch of batteries can work together for much longer. You also don't need to worry about weight since they're in one place
28A Tesla Model 3, for example, has a battery capacity of 50 to 82 kWh. Let's assume the lowest capacity of 50 kWh. A car battery is basically unusable long before it has lost around half its capacity. So 25 kWh. American households on average consume 10.6 MWh annually or about 29 kWh per day.
So an old Tesla battery still provides enough electricity to power an American household for nearly an entire day.
29There’s also something about their peak current being reduced with age, and in this use case, they don’t really need that peak current, so they really can stay useful for a long time in this use case
1
I thought I read that this was a plan Tesla had to repurpose the car batteries into power walls for home consumers. Not sure that ever ended up happening but great to see the retired car batteries given a second life
11A 50 KWh or more battery pack will be overkill for most homes. But those will likely be available for cheap soon so it might still be a good option. Putting a pack that weighs several hundred kilos in your basement might be difficult, though.
4Im not 100% sure how the batteries are constructed from all of the cells (and I know it depends on the model), but the re-using process can work a lot better than just pulling out the battery and popping it down. EV batteries are in the range of hundreds of volts, but the cells themselves are about 4 volts. It's my understanding that the battery as a whole doesn't uniformly degrade, but you might have individual cells that degrade. If 1 cell in a chain of 10 goes bad, that chain can be made off limits to the battery, so you still technically have 9/10 cells that work fine.
The way a lot of people reuse/recycle/refurb (not sure what the right terminology is in this instance) EV batteries is to test each of the cells themselves, and get rid of the duds, and keep the decent cells. Tesla, for example, all used to use 18650 cells (and I think some models still do), which is the same exact cell that's in decent name-brand cordless power tools.
When you aren't required to keep weight, space, and extra circuitry to a minimum, you can really design a system that squeezes every last drop of usefulness out of those cells before they need to be melted down and remade.
3
I'm assuming that doing full charge/discharge cycles on them daily will put more wear on them than every day driving would?
But if your buying them at scrap value and the. Still selling them as scrap after a few more years I guess it works out.
21The way lithium batteries work, they wear out less if you only discharge and charge them slightly. So a battery that is charged to 60%, discharged to 40%, and repeated like that will keep most of its capacity even after years of prolonged use. On the other hand, charging a battery quickly, until it is full, or discharging it until it is nearly empty will reduce its capacity over time.
A Tesla Model 3 has a battery capacity of at least 50 kWh. Even if it has lost half of its capacity, the 20% capacity difference between 60% and 40% charge, or more realistically, the 50% difference between 75% and 25%, still represents 12.5 kWh of capacity. Suppose you had an array of 1,000 such batteries. That would represent 12.5 MWh of storage capacity, enough to power ten thousand homes (at 1.2 kW each) for an hour. Certainly nothing to sneeze at.
35Being packed away in a static location has much lower energy density requirements than driving around with the battery on-board. Getting the most out of them and then reprocessing the materials seems better than just reprocessing right away once they're no longer useful for EVs.
15Exactly, it goes from being about the capacity:weight ratio to capacity:cost and as a bonus also postpones having to use powernto recycle them (and hopefully it'll be cheaper/more efficient to do so then).
2
In practice they're used more as a sort of capacitor to provide voltage regulation on the grid, basically what gas is doing for reliability. Not sure how often that wouldn't involve a full discharge, but I know most gas in this context is running way below its capability.
7It sounds like this is being used for day/night storage here as opposed to spot demand, so it may be using more of the charge range.
I wonder if these batteries have reduced peak power output, can they fulfil the kind of balancing that you are suggesting? I guess if they had enough it would be fine.
1
So like... do electric car owners just need to buy new batteries? That's the most expensive part!
19Yeah, that's the bit that makes me think there will be a shitload of people cut off from vehicle ownership by the electric revolution.
It's time to end that stupid suburban sprawl, and make places walkable, cyclable, and have subsidised public transport. Because when the petrol age comes to an end, those people left out of the new one will revolt.
22Sometimes, but not often. These are mostly 1st gen EV batteries, so they're pretty old. It's mentioned in the article that once capacity diminishes to the point of effecting range the old battery is replaced. Old units can be refurbished. These units could also be situations where the car surrounding the battery failed (accident, hail damage, etc) and they decided to scrap it and reclaim the battery.
19At one time, they didn't last more than a few years, and needed expensive replacement. Newer batteries have better BMS controllers on them and last a lot longer. But any damage pretty much necessitates replacement. The batteries can probably be fixed but IDK if they can be put back into use in vehicles then. So there's plenty of used batteries that can be upgraded to use for stationary storage. You can buy them all day long on certain websites or auctions. It's a pretty popular thing for DIY solar.
8Think of it like phone batteries, you dont, but overtime, the wear level of the battery is lower than new, and if that range is less than what you need to dailu drive, then people will get their battery swapped.
Its one of the reasons why car companies were hesitent to make lithium ion batteries for EVs
6When they've reached end of life for the car, they are still useful.
EVs require high energy density so they get replaced when they don't store enough energy for their weight. However for grid storage, weight doesn't really matter (at least not as much) so a battery with 80% of its original capacity is a good (and cheap) solution.
When the market is mature, it will good for car owners who need to replace their batteries because the old one still has value.
6This should make it less expensive if EV owners can sell their old batteries to be turned into a grid battery.
4The article mentions that they mostly use batteries from the Nissan Leaf and Honda Clarity. I'm not sure about the latter, but the Nissan Leaf does not have any kind of battery management system. That keeps the battery warm in winter and cool in summer, and helps it last a lot longer. Nearly every major EV on the market does this, but the Leaf is the big exception. It's also the one car where you'll see severe range degradation on an older model.
1Sure... at roughly the same rate and/or lifespan as someone with a combustion powered car might need to rebuild their engine or transmission. It's really not that big of a deal, and newer battery chemistries like the current LiFePO packs are continually getting longer and longer lived. BEV battery packs are already expected to last 10 to 20 years.
-3Engine swap is a few thousand. New battery full swap is close to 20k on a smaller car. Not quite the same.
2
What an atrociously dangerous planned design.
- Poor design: Thermal runaway is a serious problem that this setup has a very high chance of occurring. When it occurs, not if, it will spread fast from one container to the next and it will not be able to be put out that is the current fire fighting procedure for the state.
- It is very dangerous because these old batteries produce a very toxic and dangerous compounds when in thermal runaway. Again firefighting procedures cover hazmat requirements and it’s well documented the dangerous compounds that are present especially in these older batteries.
Net result. It will create another unstoppable fire that will dump poisons into ground water and the air recklessly endangering anyone down wind.
Solutions not problems:
- Isolate each container in an empty dam that is able to be filled with super chilled salt water the moment a runaway begins.
- Design fire suppression and shutdown to protect residents and the grid. Keep personal onsite to monitor with the authority to immediately react to fire incidents.
6Do you think the engineers haven't thought about that?
1Do you think personal safety, firefighting ability, and effects on the environment has informed the design of like… anything in the last 50 years?
“Faster to catch fire, faster to spread, faster to catastrophically fail, more dangerous to life and health, and worse for the environment when it does so” describes anything from modern house construction to vehicle manufacturing.
Priority one is “cheaper”, the rest is just noise.
4They actually have not thought of that no. In fact there is a cult like level of ignorance that has already just caused a serious fire & toxic release with this exact same hair brain layout and design. That said the method of fire containment is very new out of the Netherlands I believe.
2After hearing jokes about college professors evacuating planes when they hear that their students designed them? Wouldn't put it past em. Even experts make big mistakes.
1
This is a way to get off gas as it's used for reliability and voltage regulation. There's a few locations running pilots with different energy storage techs like this. One of the main problems with integrating renewables is they aren't dispatchable generation so you're basically throwing unknowns in to the system. This is mediated through programs like demand response and load following with gas, but the goal of decommissioning gas and fossils entirely while still providing reliability is hampered because of this gap in capability. Renewables paired with storage would accommodate more less flexible renewables and SMRs, and allow for more electrification of the economy with less climate impact. More electric arc furnaces!
4Imagine that box there gets hit by lightning.
3I mean, okay, but how much of anything can get hit by lightning and not be a smoldering crater without proper grounding and such?
12One of my grandmothers great uncles.
8
Good idea but good luck to the people who will try to take the fire out
Edit: I'm not saying that it's bad, of course renewable, solar, electric is good. But knowing how horrible electric vehicle fires are to put out, I don't see a fire of piled up batteries being an easy challenge for firefighters
-20Any energy storage device has risks. In this case the risk is higher, but so is the overall energy storage capability. If you store them off to the side in their own little building, there’s no real risk beyond loss of investment and environmental impacts.
Not to mention, firefighters now have tools to fight these types of fires.
16Batteries and by extension EVs have a much lower risk of catching fire than ICE cars. Stop repeating fossil fuel industry gaslighting.
14Bring on electric grid storage but don’t delude yourself it’s all sunshine and rainbows. The dangers of lithium nickel cobalt fires and toxic chemical release is very serious with a weird cult like level of ignorance. The actual grid battery fires and subsequent poisioning that’s occurred recently without consideration for the downwind population and groundwater are raising some big red flags.
Current state procedure for putting out lithium nickel cobalt fires. Hazmat gear and let it burn out.
0
Yeah, a huge tank of oil or natural gas or pile of coal is a total cake walk to extinguish! /s
7For real.
-5