2d ago

Public transit in Toronto, Canada 🇨🇦 vs Chengdu, China 🇨🇳

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/33228379

Mildly Infuriating @lemmy.world

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This reminds me that I kept the bus schedules of the intercity coach connecting a string of small cities in Quebec, that I was using 15 years ago. They had multiple departures a day. I remember being able to go from St-Hyacinthe to Victoriaville and back in the same day.
Now they have two departures a week and cut stops in multiple villages along the way.
In fact, there were coaches in the town I grew up in, back in the 90ies. Obviously there is nothing now. My mother says there were also passenger trains but they were cancelled in the 90ies too, and now there's only freight on those tracks.
I have never owned a car, always used public transit, coaches and done whatever I can to avoid using cars, and I can see through the 2 decades of my adult life in Québec that things are even regressing in some areas.

This map does not include any of the street cars, any of the light rail, any bus routes, any of the linked transit like the GO system trains or buses, it's literally just the the underground subway only. Which if that's what you want to compare is fine, but that's not what the title says. The title clearly indicates transit system, which should include most of that.
A good transit system needs a mix of above and below ground. Toronto used to have an massively extensive streetcar system that even went as far north as Lake Simcoe . Which has been dismantled and gutted over the years in favour of cars. That's part of why they built the subway in Toronto in the first place, to get rid of the street car network and make more room for cars.

I spent time in Chengdu in 2011. It was stunning how bad the pollution was. Like, thick sepia haze obscuring skyscrapers just a quarter mile or so down the road. I wonder if it's cleaner now.
- I believe it is, at least in China generally.
  https://earth.org/how-china-is-winning-its-battle-against-air-pollution/
  I have been arguing against tankies putting authoritarian countries on a pedestal, but this is one thing their regimes can be good at.
  (But afaik other types of pollution resp. putting people in danger are still rampant, e.g. Shenzhen's electronics production)

North America can't public transit, it's by design

It's impressive what you can accomplish when the people who oppose it/are in the way don't matter in the slightest to the people in charge.
I'd love to see this level of expansion anywhere in the US, done properly and without targeting minorities and the poor like we do too often...
If I could ride a metro line to work and to the store, I'd be soooooo happy. No more daily driver for me! Except my bikes, of course. I'd be saving all that money for more bicycles.
- You just gave proof that the people who are in the way don't matter in the US either, as long as it's about building inner city highways.
  The difference between China and the US is, that the Chinese government does what they deem is necessary and logical, ignoring the people while the US does what the deem is profitable and lucrative ignoring the people.
  
  You just gave proof that the people who are in the way don’t matter in the US either, as long as it’s about building inner city highways.
  I don't know where I managed to say anything to the contrary... As you point out, I literally give proof that people in the way don't matter.

This is just a meme, it has very little informational value and it's misleading on several levels. (OP somebody has been posting it a lot these past days; have a look there for more explanation).
The implication that things are better in China is... mostly wrong and pointlessly political. I'm restraining myself here.
If you want to criticize Toronto Public transport do it with facts, not this BS.
- Public transit is in fact better in China. In fact public transit in China is considered some of the best in the world at this point. Pointing out a particular ways in which a communist country is better than most capitalist countries is informationally valuable, and vice versa. That’s called a nuanced understanding of the differences.
  You asserting things can’t be better in China is pointlessly political. Some things are better in China, some things are worse.
  Westerners are so propagandized they’ll literally argue with a map.
  
  And tankies are so propagandised they don't see flawed arguments if they're in favor of their overlords.
  From the linked comment you obviously did not read:
  Population: Chengdu over 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
  The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
  Also, the fact that Chengdu's metro has developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the gotcha OP seems to imply it is.
  That said, it’s perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without pointlessly comparing it to Chengdu.
  As I said: this is a meme, not an actual argument.
- If you see this as an image intented to criticise Toronto i can see your point. But it is also be considered an image showing development in China. Building a system like this is impressive. But i agree for that purpose you could leave Toronto out.
  
  Well that's my point: the comparison makes very little sense.
  Population: Chengdu over 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
  The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
  Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the gotcha OP seems to imply it is.
  That said, it’s perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without pointlessly comparing it to Chengdu.
  And that doesn't even take into account the one "advantage" of totalitarian regimes, which some people always forget: it's possible to act faster when there's no democratic process. Plus rampant corruption resp. cutting of corners (one commenter on the post I linked went into detail, with sources, on that). Again, not saying TTC is completely free of that.
- As a Torontonian since 2005, I approve of this meme. We have so consistently and "democratically" shat the bed on transit over the last 20 years that today we live with depressing and job limiting commute times. This is very much a quality of life issue that affects most who live here. 25km commute often takes 1-1.5h in a single direction. Thousands if not millions of people here spend 2-3 hours of every work day commuting.
- I accept that what is being presented is factual. Do you not? I don't think that is the criticism here.
  
  Facts can be set up to mislead, because it isn't possible to have all relevant facts presented. In this case for example, you can't see how comparable the two cities are - the only facts in that regard are their names and the flag of their country. This is a true image of the underground metro, but does not show all forms of public transport for example. Another way this is framed by selecting these two cities, not showing any other cities anywhere else. So it matters that it's factual, but that doesn't mean it cant be misleading anymore.
  
  It can be both factual and misleading. The misleading part is the kicker here.

You reckon people would be as willing to defend Toronto's dog shit public transit network if it was compared to a western city rather than a Chinese one?
- Clearly not lmao

This is how you perform sophistry with facts.

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