KDE's Nate Graham On X11 Being A Bad Platform & The Wayland Future

Alternatively, instead of reading a Phoronix article that has a couple of short snippets from a much longer blog post, you can read the original blog post yourself to see the full context.

Edit: Also, it is worth noting that the author of the original blog post had previously written another relatively recent post criticizing the way in which Wayland was developed, so it's not like they are refusing to see its problems.

Wayland has fixed so many head-scratching issues I would get running 6 monitors on 2 GPUs under X11. I'd often end up with missing monitors, placed in wrong spots that I'd have to rearrange every reboot until an update would come through that would fix it again for a few months, then all over again.

Since I moved to wayland, everything just works. When it doesn't, it's not a display server issue, it's something physical. I just had a couple monitors fail to show up and thought "oh hell, it's back to this, eh". But I open the tower, seat the offending GPU better, and everything comes up like normal, and all the screens are in the right position, it just remembers.

Anyone that thinks X11 is still superior probably runs on a laptop with a single screen.

Over on Nate's other blog entry he indicates this:

The fundamental X11 development model was to have a heavyweight window server–called Xorg–which would handle everything, and everyone would use it. Well, in theory there could be others, and at various points in time there were, but in practice writing a new one that isn’t a fork of an old one is nearly impossible

And I think this is something people tend to forget. X11 as a protocol is complex and writing an implementation of it is difficult to say the least. Because of this, we've all kind of relied on Xorg's implementation of it and things like KDE and GNOME piggyback on top of that. However, nothing (outside of the pure complexity) prevented KWin (just as an example) implementing it's own X server. KWin having it's own X server would give it specific things that would better handle the things KWin specifically needed.

Good parallel is how crazy insane the HTML5 spec has become and how now pretty much only Google can write a browser for that spec (with thankfully Firefox also keeping up) and everyone is just cloning that browser and putting their specific spin to it. But if a deep enough core change happens, that's likely to find its way into all of the spins. And that was some of the issue with X. Good example here, because of the specific way X works an "OK" button (as an example) is actually implemented by your toolkit as a child window. Menus those are windows too. In fact pretty much no toolkit uses primitives anymore. It's all windows with lots and lots of text attributes. And your toolkit Qt, Gtk, WINGs, EFL, etc handle all those attributes so that events like "clicking a mouse button" work like had you clicked a button and not a window that's drawn to look like a button.

That's all because these toolkits want to do things that X won't explicitly allow them to do. Now the various DEs can just write an X server that has their concept of what a button should do, how it should look, etc... And that would work except that, say you fire up GIMP that uses Gtk and Gtk has it's idea of how that widget should look and work and boom things break with the KDE X server. That's because of the way X11 is defined. There's this middle man that always sits there dictating how things work. Clients draw to you, not to the screen in X. And that's fundamentally how X and Wayland are different.

I think people think of Wayland in the same way of X11. That there's this Xorg that exists and we'll all be using it and configuring it. And that's not wholly true. In X we have the X server and in that department we had Xorg/XFree86 (and some other minor bit players). The analog for that in Wayland (roughly, because Wayland ≠ X) is the Compositor. Of which we have Mutter, Clayland, KWin, Weston, Enlightenment, and so on. Which that's more than just one that we're used to. That's because the Wayland protocol is simple enough for these multiple implementations.

The skinny is that a Compositor needs to at the very least provide these:

• wl_display - This is the protocol itself.
• wl_registry - A place to register objects that come into the compositor.
• wl_surface - A place for things to draw.
• wl_buffer - When those things draw there should be one of these for them to pack the data into.
• wl_output - Where rubber hits the road pretty much, wl_surface should display wl_buffer onto this thing.
• wl_keyboard/wl_touch/etc - The things that will interact with the other things.
• wl_seat - The bringing together of the above into something a human being is interacting with.

And that's about it. The specifics of how to interface with hardware and what not is mostly left to the kernel. In fact, pretty much compositors are just doing everything in EGL, that is KWin's wl_buffer (just random example here) is a eglCreatePbufferSurface with other stuff specific to what KWin needs and that's it. I would assume Mutter is pretty much the same case here. This gets a ton of the formality stuff that X11 required out of the way and allows Compositors more direct access to the underlying hardware. Which was pretty much the case for all of the Window Managers since 2010ish. All of them basically Window Manage in OpenGL because OpenGL allowed them to skip a lot of X, but of course there is GLX (that one bit where X and OpenGL cross) but that's so much better than dealing with Xlib and everything it requires that would routinely require "creative" workarounds.

This is what's great about Wayland, it allows KWin to focus on what KWin needs, mutter to focus on what mutter needs, but provides enough generic interface that Qt applications will show up on mutter just fine. Wayland goes out of its way to get out of the way. BUT that means things we've enjoyed previously aren't there, like clipboards, screen recording, etc. Because X dictated those things and for Wayland, that's outside of scope.

Every change will bring it's fair share of complainers, not much we can do about that. LILO to GRUB, SysV to systemd and now X11 to Wayland. No one is forcing your hand (unless you use a pre-packaged distro like Ubuntu/Fedora, in which case you go with whatever the distro provides), keep using X11 if you want stability, if you wanna dip your toes in bleeding-edge software and increase it's userbase to show hardware manufacturers that their drivers need to be updated (I'm looking at you, NVIDIA) then feel free to mess around.

Eventually the day will come when Wayland apps will simply not launch on X11 and you'll migrate too.

after more than 25 years using linux I could not care less about those dramas, when my distro will drop xorg I'll switch and that's it. I've got way too much stuff to implement myself already, there is no time for that. I mean, I've even embraced systemd...

Oh boy, 102 comments. Knowing Phoronix, I bet those are a treat to read.

Anecdote, I know, but for my use cases, Wayland just isn't there yet- I wind up with far more random bugs and less battery life. I don't pretend to know why, I'm a pleb non-developer, but until that's resolved I'm still stuck on X. I'd love to use the new shiny thing of The Future™, but not at the cost of stability and usability.

I don't see why we need convincing that Wayland's better. Most Linux users either use it currently or are possibly looking to switch in the future. The other people who are not are likely going to use X for eternity

It's super impressive to see Wayland having its big breakthrough moment. I remember reading about Wayland 10 years ago and worrying it was going to end up as a dead project.

Until my distro forces wayland on me I'll stick with xorg+XFCE. I've played with sway and hyprland but I need my application choices to actually work well. (no I'm not going to list them).

As for the cube desktop in the image: We had this with compiz and learnt then that this is pointless.

Why are we back there?

Oh boy, the Phoronix's comment section 💀

I love Wayland until I don't. I honestly don't think about it, it gets out of my way and my system is stable, until I go to use something like scrcpy that just doesn't work at all. Luckily, the amount of things that straight up don't work is shrinking.

Undoubtedly Wayland is the way forward and I think it's a good thing. However I wouldn't piss all over X because it served us well for many years. My LMDE 6 still runs X and probably will for the next 2 years at least because both the Mint Team and Debian team don't rush into things. They are taking it slow, testing Wayland to make sure no-one's system breaks when they switch to Wayland.

This is the best approach. Eventually it will all be Wayland but I never understood why this is such an issue. Like any tech it's progress, no need for heated debates. It's just a windowing system after all.

This is the best summary I could come up with:

Well known KDE developer Nate Graham is out with a blog post today outlining his latest Wayland thoughts, how X11 is a bad platform, and the recent topic of "Wayland breaking everything" isn't really accurate.

Nate Graham acknowledges current gaps in Wayland support but on the matter of "Wayland breaks everything" isn't really the right perspective: "Look, if I said, “Linux breaks Photoshop; you should keep using Windows!” I know how you’d respond, right?

You’d say “Wait a minute, the problem is that Photoshop doesn’t support Linux!” And you’d be right.

Because there’s nothing Linux can do to ‘un-break’ Photoshop; Adobe needs to port their software, and they simply haven’t done so yet.

This porting is necessary because Wayland is designed to target a future that doesn’t include 100% drop-in compatibility with everything we did in the past, because it turns out that a lot of those things don’t make sense anymore.

For the ones that do, a compatibility layer (XWayland) is already provided, and anything needing deeper system integration generally has a path forward (Portals and Wayland protocols and PipeWire) or is being actively worked on.

The original article contains 395 words, the summary contains 187 words. Saved 53%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

Really looking forward to the day nvidia drivers properly support wayland. Getting tons of bugs, stutters, and general usability issues with plasma wayland on my 3060. X11 just works on the other hand, even with multiple monitors running at different refresh rates (something a friend of mine said X11 doesn't work well with). But I want all the nice benefits wayland offers.

Nvidia on Wayland moment

Gaming on wayland moment

Battery/Usage on wayland moment

KDE devs making gestures only available on wayland because memes (there is literally a 3rd party github script to achieve the same thing on X11)

X11 being reliable because Xorg devs aren't stupid

My real issue with Wayland is that it took like 15 years to become acceptably usable. I'll switch once XFCE moves over in several years, but until then, there is no incentive for worse performance and non exitestent support.

Because Wayland is only a protocol and you write the platform yourself (be it badly or not).

Would be cool if the reference implementation (Weston) were not an unusable monolith but a small plugin-based thing.

Wayland on an Intel iGPU runs flawlessly and has for several years. However, that's a matter of drivers. AMD is in the forefront regarding having dGPU support, while NVIDIA is playing catch-up.

In any case, the future is bright.

I'm still stuck with X11 because of NVIDIA drivers. I've tried alot to make Wayland work but I guess it just isn't supported yet. (Debian 12 / GNOME / RTX 2080 SUPER)

Soo support for something like synergy would be great!

Barrier Wayland support when? Probably never even though the bounty was met.

Wayland developer says X11 is bad, not Wayland

Eh, I always discredit people when they say X is bad.

It's been around for over 20 years. That kind of longevity should be praised.

Really glad probonopd is doing this, X11 is dying but wayland isnt ready to replace it, so it's nice to have this

EDIT, paste didn't work https://github.com/probonopd/wayland-x11-compat-protocols

Nate Graham acknowledges current gaps in Wayland support but on the matter of "Wayland breaks everything" isn't really the right perspective

That's rather disingenuous. It's meant to be a replacement for X11. So it does break things.

Wayland doesn't support Nvidia GPUs yet

I'm sorry, my bad, I was unaware.

Nvidia GPUs don't support Wayland yet. As Linux Torvalds would say, "NVidia, Fuck You"

Trying to gaslight others? nice

You will never be a real display server. You have no hardware cursors, you have no xrandr, you have no setxkbmap. You are a toy project twisted by Red Hat and GNOME into a crude mockery of X11’s perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your developers are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “users” laugh at your lack of features behind closed doors.

Linux users are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed them to sniff out defective software with incredible efficiency. Even Wayland sessions that “work” look uncanny and unnatural to a seasoned sysadmin. Your bizarre render loop is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk Arch user home with you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your high latency due to forced VSync.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the technical debt creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll log into the GitLab instance, select the project, press Delete, and plunge it into the cold abyss. Your users will find the deletion notice, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll remember you as the biggest failure of open source development, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a badly run project has failed there. Your code will decay and go to historical archives, and all that will remain of your legacy is a codebase that is unmistakably poorly written.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.