2y ago

higher wages for the servers... by the customers. Fnbs

Went to a restaurant in LA today and when I got the check I noticed that it was a bit higher than it should be. Then I noticed this 18% service charge. So... We, as customers, need to help pay for their servers instead of the owners paying their servers a living wage. And on top of that they have suggested tip. I called bs on this. I will bet you that the servers do not see a dime of this 18% service charge. [deleted a word so it wasn't a grammatical horror to read]

355 comments

So it's a mandatory tip, and it's also suggested you voluntarily leave a secondary tip.
Tip culture in America is so aggressive.
- It’s getting stupid in Canada too despite our laws being different (as in, you cannot make less than minimum wage if you work in a place that allows tips).
  I got my oil changed a few months ago and the machine prompted me for a tip. For what? The mechanic did their job, I paid for said job. Transaction concluded.
  I tried Crumbl cookies for the first (and last, holy crap overpriced) time. Got asked for a tip. For what? I got six cookies in a box and then had to leave the store because there’s no seating to eat them there. The person who helped me took my order. That’s it. Another employee put six cookies in a box and put them on a counter and said my number. Not a lot of wiggle room to go “above and beyond.”
  What’s next? A tip at the grocery store for the cashier scanning my groceries? A tip at the drive-thru?
  Here’s a tip. Don’t work for an employer who doesn’t pay you what you’re worth.
  EDIT: Actually, the tip at the drive-thru is already a thing. Starbucks prompts for a tip at the drive-thru. For what? The barista took my order and made my coffee. I drove up to a window, took it, and fucked off.
  
  I booked a hotel online the other day and was asked if I want to leave a tip... A tip for what? I didn't even interact with a human. Just clicked a few buttons on a website. Am I tipping the web developer?? Lol
  
  Starbucks barista doesn't even "make" the coffee. They use superautomatic espresso machines. Starbucks coffee sucks ass.
  
  In the US you generally cannot make less than minimum wage, the employer can directly pay you less as long as your full compensation (pay + tips) are at least minimum wage, if not they are supposed to pay more.
  I think the explosion of tip questions is due to the card processors figuring out there was an untapped area where they could pressure people to tip and skim off a percentage of that.
- Service charge I would presume is primarily paid out to the non-wait staff at the restaurant. The kitchen in particular.
  Tips go to the wait staff, and they will pay some of that out to other staff (e.g. front staff) depending on how the restaurant works.
  These are going to be separate. The service charge is there so they can increase prices by a tightly controlled amount without needing to fuck up the carefully targeted price points ($8 or $7.99 is a lot better than $9.44). Which is shitty, to be clear: it's a hidden way to increase prices while still advertising the same price. But it's not something that replaces or complements the tip, it's just a shitty price-adjustment.
  A waiter or waitress is still going to be dependent on the actual tip.
  
  Why don’t the restaurants just pay actual living wage then?
  
  Biden was in the news saying he wants to get rid of hidden fees. I was surprised that restaraunts weren't on the list of industries being targeted. This kind of fee should be illegal. It should be required to be a part of the up-front price.
  Hell, I feel the same about sales tax. It should be baked in to the price you see on the shelf or menu.
  
  Found their website. They use a lot of flowery words, but I think you sum it up pretty well.
  https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge
  
  Or they can get a less shitty employer. I see a hidden "service" fee, that's the tip, take it to up with the owner, I'm not responsible for this. Restaurant staff really need to start directing their anger and efforts at their employer instead of customers.
  
  So what’s to stop them from setting all prices to 1 cent and having the rest as service fee?
  
  Thank you for posting this you are correct the fee goes to the restaurant and they use the money to pay the back of house. In my experience it is just so the restaurant can provide the same wages as before to back of house but not out of the restaurants pocket. This tends to result in people tipping less so the server directly makes less money. There is also often no accounting/oversight into how the restaurant uses the fee. If I recall correctly the city of Los Angeles is looking into the legality of how these fees are presented to the customer and the fact there is no oversight.
- Reminds me of how dealerships can sell cars above the MSRP ... SMH
  (( They do it in US but not in Europe; or so I heard ))
  
  The S in MSRP is "suggested", so I don't see any technical problem with it. I think we need a separate term if it's meant to be a locked price point across sellers.
- Owner wants to get his cut, server wants to put gas in their car. We’re a country of 350 million attempted unique make it rich stories and it’s a goddamn mess.
  We need UBI and jobs programs aka Trek after WW3…but I fear we may have to fight the war to get it
- How is this any different than just raising the price of everything by 18%? But you see service charge and a percentage and its an outrage.
  
  If you raise the price of everything by 18% the prices on the menu will be 18% higher, possibly discouraging people from eating there. If you add it at the end people will still choose to eat there at least once. It is practically the same as raising prices, just a lot more dishonest.
  
  Because raising the price of everything lets you know ahead of time that you are paying more. I'm fine with a price hike if it means servers get better pay, but hiding it like this is scummy and borderline fraudulent.
  
  They are trying to tell you to not ask for a livable wage.
  
  It does make sense to increase all menu prices in order to pay higher wages, but it's a sleazy dishonest practice to hide that increase from the customers until it's too late.
- Listen to this scam.
  I stopped at a Starbucks kiosk to get my kid a juice box the other day. When I paid for it by card the card machine prompted for a tip, 25%, 20%, and 15%. Here's the kicker, 25% was selected by default! You actually have to use button on the machine to move through the selections to get to NONE. To top it off the lady behind the counter casually said, "Oh you're using a card? Just press the green accept button when the menu comes up." which would have selected the 25 option.
  
  Super shady!
- It's not a tip. They've literally just increased the prices without showing and lying about it on the menu.

All the arguments about tipping here are missing the point. The restaurant owner just came up with a bullshit way of raising the prices without showing larger numbers on the menu. That should honestly be illegal.
- A lottt of restaurants in socal do this, unfortunately. I've never seen it this high, though.
- maybe it’s to allow take-away at a lower price, like a dine in vs eat out charge.
  Very rare, I’m from Ireland & have only seen it once in a Chinese restaurant. They were very clear about it in the menu though so it wasn’t a sticker shock price
  
  we have that in Egypt. normally like 15% service charge when eating in the restaurant but nothing when taking out.
  
  I've seen some restaurants adding a take-out fee recently. It's fucking insane.
- It soon will be. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewed-ftc-regulatory-focus-on-hidden-and-junk-fees
  
  Reading the article, I'm not feeling too encouraged that this will actually impact small restaurants. From the article it sounds like the FTC is just going after large corporations.
- You can,
  want the owner to take a smaller cut
  be willing to pay more to raise the wages of the employees
  want to control via tips how much people make
  What is BS is hidden costs.

The thing is, by paying for food we should be paying the employees - that's how salaries work. But in an effort to out-compete each other in the razor-thin margin business that is most restaurants, they don't want their menu prices to go up, because that discourages customer spending. So many restaurants use underhanded tactics to screw customers instead. Hidden menu prices, sneaky service fees, and begging for point-of-sale tips at places where they're not getting paid shitty server salaries (like fast food).
- Best to cook at home

I’ll be the one to stoop to a name and shame. From the receipt, that’s Jon & Vinny's Brentwood. Thanks—will now be sure to avoid going there.
- i went to the one in Fairfax. i should have known something was up. when my wife (who wanted to go, she doesn't speak english so she was just looking at the pictures) showed me this place, i saw that their rating wasn't as good as i thought it would be. but since i was driving i didn't check. now i know why.
- Jon and Vinny's is such great food too, it's a shame that they pull this shit. Last time I went, I just rounded up to the nearest $ and paid with cash. I'm not tipping on top of an 18% auto gratuity. I would say they should just raise their prices, but that place is already very expensive...
- For anyone in/traveling to Seattle, "Conversation" is a restaurant by Pike Place, and they add 20%.

All wages are paid by customers. Where do you think the money to pay them comes from? Heaven?
The underhanded and sneaky part is that the menu prices are a lie. If they want to pay a decent wage to their employees, good on them, but they should just raise all menu prices by 18% instead of surprising you later.
- Kids pasta shells are already $16.25. I don't think they can raise them any more.
  
  Of course they can raise prices higher.
  Sadly, there have been studies (too lazy to find a link) that indicate being sneaky like this, instead of raising prices, leads to a better reaction from customers.
- You nailed it. It's artificially deflated prices, and dishonest..
  Would be the last time I visited them.
- Upvoted, but just want to say that the payment usually goes customer -> owner -> employee. Don’t let the owners trick anyone into thinking that someone other than themerlves are responsible for paying employees.
  
  Why though? Why does that asshole get to decide how much the cook makes, and his much the server makes? Why do I get no say in it? After all, they're making and serving food for me, not the owner. I should be allowed to negotiate with the cook and the server and write up a contract we all agree to. The owner gets a cut, too, for providing the space, and paying for the ingredients, but the cook and server pay him out of the money they make. Don't forget the dishwasher. He rents the dishes to the cook.
  I realized this sounds very silly and weird, but that's exactly how contracting works. You directly pay who you interact with for the work they are offering, and if their work requires good or services from other people, they pay them.
  Why not run a restaurant like a hair salon where a cook rents a time slot and a part of the kitchen. And the server is like hiring a private courier.
  Again, its silly. I'm just saying.... The whole customer -> owner -> employee relationship you seem to hold sacred is totally arbitrary. It's a system some men with capital invented thousands of years ago. Why is it necessarily good?

If the service charge is always there then just raise prices by 18% and stop misleading people ffs…

Corporations invented Jaywalking to pass the problem of death by vehicle from the manufacturer to the victim. Corporations invented the concept of Litterbug to shift blame from the makers of trash to the disposers of trash. Corporations invented the concept of the personal carbon footprint to shift the blame from the makers of carbon to the users of carbon.
This is just the same thing. Corporations are good at this.
- Trash has been around far longer than corporations, and people have taken responsibility for their trash long before corporations existed.
  
  Okay, thank you for setting me straight.

What a joke. Just raise your prices and put it on the menu. I would refuse to pay that. That was not listed anywhere before you ordered.
- Those prices are already wack, holy cow
  
  It's California pricing with added 9% inflation.
- That was not listed anywhere before you ordered.
  I don't know why this logic hadn't occurred to me until you said it. Strikingly obvious argument for raising prices on the menu.
  
  They aren't doing that because nobody can do the math in their head to figure out what the actual cost of the menu items will be. Much better (for them) to hit you up with a charge at the end and blindside you with percentage surcharges.
  It's alarmingly frequent in California and should be fucking illegal.

I thought the point of paying servers a living wage was to make tipping unnecessary.
- This line of thinking is just making serving a less attractive job for millions of people to save yourself a small amount of money.
  
  This line of thinking is what let's wage thieves sleep at night.

Any auto-grat on a bill is an instant big fat 0 on the tip line for me. Fuck double dipping on customers subsidizing shitty wages. It shouldn’t even need to happen once. If the restaurant can’t pay a reasonable wage it shouldn’t be in business.
I would be completely okay with a restaurant charging a bit more for meals if they also had a “do not tip” policy. Wait staff should be expected to do their jobs, the restaurant should be expected to pay their employees. As a customer I should be expected to pay the restaurant, full stop.
- This isn't an auto-grat situation though. This is the restaurant increasing their prices by 18%, then blaming it on the staff.
  By not tipping, you're just punishing the wait staff for the restaurant's shitty behavior. Better to tip normally, then tell the restaurant you won't be back until they get their heads out of their asses.
  
  It's a service charge. That implies the money is going to the staff. So they are already getting approximately what they would have been tipped.
  Now, maybe "service charge" is a lie and they aren't actually seeing that money. But if so, then the waitstaff are complicit in that lie, because they handed it to me. And if I'm supposed to assume they are lying then I'm certainly not tipping them.
- I wouldn't go back, but your anger is towards management not the worker. I'd still tip in this situation.
- This isn't an auto grat tho? This is them saying "You pay more so our employees get better pay, you pay exactly this much more for this effect". Instead of them just cranking up prices like normal.
  Y'all are bitching and moaning about a restaurant being honest instead of just fucking charging more.
  
  This isn't an auto-grat. The receipt explicitly says "This is not a tip or gratuity" and has a recommended tip line. This restaurant is either double-dipping to pay their employees less or scamming their customers.
  
  If it's not an auto-grat why not just raise the prices on the menu 18 percent instead of surprising customers at checkout. Setting prices to cover your business and staff is an important part of running any business. The way they're doing it is intentianally deceptive. Even down to saying that this is so that they can pay staff instead of just advertising the actual prices in the menu.

What is this nonsense? I mean, since the customers are the only source of income for a restaurant, of course the customers pay for the wages.
But why hide that behind obscure markups (that's all a service charge/tip is)? Why not just price the food 18% higher and drop the service charge?
That way, the restaurant earns the same money, but the customers actually know what they are going to pay and the restaurant visit doesn't end on a down note when paying.
- People look at the menu, decide the prices are reasonable and eat. They then get hit with an 18% service charge and (in the US) a 20% tip on top.
  The restaurant could increase their prices by 18%, but then people would decide to eat elsewhere. Of course they'll do that anyway after being hit with all the charges, but the owner thinks it's worth it to get the custom once.
  
  Wild that somebody would decide $22.25 is reasonable for chicken wings. Maybe for 100 of them ...
  
  Why would you tip when the restaurant just pre-charged an 18% tip? They say it isn't a tip but it goes to the employees so, unless the service staff was beyond exemplary, just don't tip. It's less than I would have anyway.
- You're stating the obvious. The owners are making a political statement.
- Does anyone now if the restaurant pays different taxes on food/drinks sold and tip/service fees?
  
  In Washington (everywhere is different) a service fee is taxed as income to the restaurant. A restaurant is not taxed on tips. It's better for the restaurant to not do a service fee (less taxes) than tips
  If a Washington restaurant is charging a service fee, it has to be posted. The verbiage has to say how it's being used/if the restaurant is taking any portion

Name and shame. Fuck this place.
Also “kids shells” for $22? Please tell me this is not macaroni and cheese.
- It's almost certainly a Mac & Cheese variant. Stuff like this is why I heavily research restaurant prices before going out.
- Gem lettuce for $22? Wtf is the US smoking?
  
  Just Los Angeles things 🤷‍♂️
- Since it is L.A. the markup is because of the volume of people willing/able to pay $22 for a kids Mac and cheese. At that point the tip is just mocking the workers of the restaurant.
- the most concerning part for me is the "LA woman" charge... is that just a restaurant?

I mean, that's basically the way it works. Here it's just 'transparent'.
Want to pay workers more - food gets more expensive. It's the same thing with America not adding sales tax to the sticker price. When I get something for 2 bucks in Europe, it's 2 bucks including the vat. In America, it's 2 bucks before vat.
But yeah, it's probably not properly implemented and just a scheme to get more money out of people.
- Except it's contingent on people making purchases. If there is a slow day, you work the same amount of hours but earn less because your pay isn't tied to how many hours you worked, but how many sales were made. By doing it this way, it takes the risk of running business off the owners shoulders and puts it on the workers instead.
  
  What i meant is that, in a theoretical mathematically sound world, to support higher wages, you need higher prices. The service charge shouldn't be put as a 'bonus salary' - basically the 'service charge' in most countries is included in the price of the food, and is paid out as the hourly wage to staff.
- This is the opposite of transparent. When I order food, I’m agreeing the pay the listed price for the item I ordered. Adding 18% on top of that when it comes time to pay is hiding that fee.
  If they want to charge more, they should raise their prices
  
  Well yeah, that was my point.
  Americans for some reason love this 'low low price of x$ (+tax +tip +service charge +fuck you charge) thing. Here in Switzerland, it's all in the price. Menu says 40 bucks, you pay 40 bucks. Tips are very voluntary and usually just a "round up" -> total is 57 - let's make it 60.
  My wife works in a restaurant and gets around 3.7k a month - the tips she gets add up to around 300-700, depending on the month. In the store she works, tips get handled as a pool where everyone gets their monthly share depending on hours worked (serving staff and kitchen) - so total tips x person hours / total hours by everyone.
  It's still a low wage (I make around than double her wage, but then again I'm an electrical engineer), but it is very livable - I lived on a lower wage alone comfortably when I was studying and only working 50%

I'm not in america, in our country when we buy a meal the tax is included, as is the cost of paying staff a living wage and tips are really only given (volunteerily, without prompt) in certain scenarios where service might genuinely be extraordinary.
It's always been fascinating to me that it could be done any other way and to be honest it sounds incredibly complicated and quite shitty the way america does it, it seems to me like it's an old fashioned relic from the swashbuckling 1800's, pay your maiden well and she'll make sure your mead is always topped up.. But in 2023 it seems absurd, prepared food and drink is just a product like anything else, do you tip at Walmart when you buy a TV?
- Knowing some of the absurd stories I've heard from americans (tipping car salesmen, pharmacies..) then tipping walmart wouldn't surprise me at all.
  
  Sure, the tipping culture is out of control, but anyone who tips a pharmacist or a car salesman is just a moron.
- Walmart has a policy where you are not allowed to accept tips. If you are caught you are fired. People try to tip all the time for the grocery delivery stuff and if they manage to get money into your hand or the delivery basket you have to inform a member of the management staff. Granted this might not be true at every location but it is part of the corporate training you have to do if you work there longer than 4 months.

Also by making it a service fee instead of a tip, management and the owners are able to tale part of it. Tips legally have to go to the employees, service fees can go into the owner's pockets.
- The service they're giving you is information. Specifically, information on where to never eat again.
  I hate tipping culture, but this is just on another level of bullshit. I'll begrudgingly subsidize a server's wage, but there ain't no way I'm about to help line the pockets of the greedy fucks who refuse to pay a living wage.

"We want to charge you more, but we want to make sure you blame our wait staff for it."
I wouldn't be surprised if the QR code sends you to a website bitching about "the current administration".
EDIT: https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2023-07-03/after-lawsuit-jon-and-vinnys-change-service-fee-language-on-bill
- From the site they link to:
  What About Tips?
  If customers have exceptional service, we encourage them to tip our employees at the percentage or amount they feel comfortable with.
  Maybe they should change the "Suggested Tips" with "Had exceptional service? Feel free to add a tip." and start at 5%
  Also, they should be clear if all or part of the "service charge" goes towards employee salaries.
  From:
  https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge

How about businesses pay their fucking employees? What a concept
- Isnt that what they are doing here in theory? (assuming they arent just keeping it and not paying them higher wages)
  At the very least there should be no tip option since thats what the service fee should be doing, but in theory this is what everyone online appears to want... higher prices and better pay for the employees (unless everyone really just wants the same prices, no tipping, and higher pay for the employees)
  
  Thry should raise prices and pay the employee higher wages. All this other bullshit is just that
- And just how are they going to be able to pay thier employees Mr smartguy? From the crazy over priced dishes they serve? Huh? What, from the $650 pizza making course they offer? You think they could have four sister restaurants and have any profits? Please, inform us where they could possibly get enough money to pay thier employees real life adult wages.
  
  Not my problem close the restaurant if you can't function without bait and switch tactics with your menu. The answer to your problem isn't shady business tactics. Maybe due to the mismanageement of the economy and inflation restaurants aren't viable business ideas anymore. As the country country increasingly turns to authoritarianism as an answer to it's failing economic system you are going to see more similar things that once was viable is no longer.

Why don't they just raise their prices a bit? Adding a "not" tip to the bill just seems odd.
- Because then the owner can't advertise a lower price for the food and then sneak in the hidden "service fee" at the end.
  
  That should be considered bait and switch.

A list of L.A. restaurants doing this shit from a Reddit sub:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EEPzeytrva770H2xPFFPDUUNdpnL_VQL4vbzFph-jus/edit#gid=0
- Of course it's in L.A.
  
  They definitely have it in other California cities too. And not just in restaurants.
  A chain resale/consignment hipster shop in NorCal started adding a percentage service charge years ago with the same excuse, and you'd only find out about it if you looked at your receipt. The fucked up part is that they also raised their prices so high that I couldn't shop there anymore. It's one of those buy/sell/trade clothing stores, so the whole point was to pay less for decent clothes. But if they're already raising prices significantly, why the fuck do they need yet another charge to pay their workers.
  I also think they really must believe it makes them seem "progressive" somehow. Like "oh look, we're on the workers' side!" and they hope no one eating/shopping there will think about it any more deeply than that.
- The alternative is that they just jack up the menu prices to accomplish the same thing. This is just the equivalent of pricing things at $19.99 because people don't understand that really means $20 which sounds like a lot more money.
  
  This is just the equivalent of pricing things at $19.99 because people don’t understand that really means $20 which sounds like a lot more money.
  So let's say you checkout at the grocery store tomorrow and your $100 of groceries has a $20 "employee wellness" fee tacked on. You see that and pricing an item 1 penny below a round number as the same thing. Really?
  
  No, because the difference of seeing a $19.99 price versus a $20.00 price is that I see it up front. That's more honest than tacking on a $21.50 hidden fee after the fact.
  
  Yeah, please if you're going to charge me 40 bucks for a salad just put 40 bucks on the menu. Or 39.99 If you must. I greatly prefer that over listing the salad as $30 on the menu, only get blindsided by a separate $10 service charge on the bill. Matter of fact can we just go to putting the entire cost of the item on the menu?
  Everything should be on the wheel and out the door pricing. Doing any other way is absolute bullshit.

I bet legally, the establishment owners aren't required to give "service charges" to their staff the same way they are required to give 100% of the tips...
This is some shady shit, IMO.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer (so I don't know WTF I am talking about), so if someone here that knows the law could comment on "service charges" vs. "tips" in this context, I would love to know.
- Looks like a couple of their employees are suing over exactly that.
  https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2023-07-03/after-lawsuit-jon-and-vinnys-change-service-fee-language-on-bill
  
  Jesus. They try to be altruistic and say that tip culture isn't fair (and it's not), but you know the altruistic thing would be to... Not have tipping then! I'm in Seattle and there are tons of restaurants like this that have a fee, but then tipping is genuinely not allowed, they don't accept them. Everyone gets a fair wage.
  That 18% is definitely not going to the staff.
  And for the owners, here's an idea, why not just make the menu items 18% more expensive and remove the fee altogether?? And if that means your food is too expensive... Literally yes. Why does your food cost that much?
  
  Tyvm for finding this article!!
  " The announcement and change in billing language comes after a Los Angeles Times article published on June 21 about the class-action lawsuit filed in Los Angeles Superior Court against Joint Venture Restaurant Group Inc., which owns Jon & Vinny’s. The workers claim that the company denied them tips and therefore shortchanged them on their take-home pay because of confusion resulting from the 18% service fee.
  California’s gratuity law requires that tips be remitted in full to non-managerial service staff. "
  SMH ... What a bunch of assholes; screwed their customers and then their staff...
  Hope they get fucked / hope justice is served
- The word that should be there is "gratuity." I'm quite sure you're right, and I know there are horrible owners for sure, but I would have to think it would be impossible for a restaurant nice enough to charge $22.50 for a mini plate of pasta to retain good servers if they did that. Restaurant owners who operate fancy high-priced places would have more sense than to alienate their salespeople.
  
  It's LA, so I assume there are plenty of douchy "haute cuisine" wannabe places that charge $50 for a handful of steamed rice served in a styrofoam coffee cup under the name "Riz Derelicte" or some stupid shit like that.
- Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer
  DAMNIT MAN, i already filed the lawsuit and put your name on top as a reference
- Makes me think 🤔 if I went to a grocery store and they charged me a membership like Costco without actually disclosing it... Sounds like fraud if they don't disclose this service charge / fee at the very beginning... They should have it plastered big all over the place because looks like most of us wouldn't expect something like this...
  "Restraunt" food is expensive as it is IMHO, even fast food isn't a great deal unless you buy with a coupon or some 2 burgers deal 🤝... Otherwise it's not worth it... Not to me anyways ... :/
  
  If only I could simply use a coupon to get a decent price from a fast food place. Nah, instead they all demand that you install a datamining app to maybe get you prices that would've been the regular price just a few years ago.

Frankly, the prices to sit in and be served and the prices to get the food and leave should be different. But this should be pre-informed so patrons can make the decision whether to dine-in or take-out.
- Food prices being the exact same for takeout when restaurants switched to takeout-only for covid was so ridiculous.

Those prices are about what I'd expect to pay at a restaurant here in Finland too, maybe a little more here but somehow they're able to pay a living wage to the staff from that without extra "service charge" or tips.
- You can also afford to buy a house. Finland best country
  
  I'm sure it's like every other country where a house out in the country is cheap but Helsinki is unaffordable.

Even if all the money does make into into the staff's pockets, the owner still averts financial risk by making worker pay a function of sales. An employer must have higher business risks than their staff, because otherwise the staff wouldn't need an employer anyways! This absolutely goes against the high risk - high reward scheme that is common place elsewhere. Want to earn more? Take a risky choice! Just want stable support for your life? Get employed and earn a regular wage.
- [face palm] that is an amazingly important point I hadn't thought of / not heard discussed before, about the service fee vs actual increase hourly wages. I mean it's totally obvious now that you said it.
  And I really do agree with owners taking the risk if they want the reward. I will only say that there IS a place for balance, and reward for performance. I think the current tip system is tilted WAY WAY WAY too much to the server's risk and needs to go away. I also think restaurant margins are actually too thin to go 100% wage based and put all that risk on the owners. I fear the bankruptcy churn in restaurants would be too much.
  And yet it seems to work out in Europe so I'm probably wrong.
  
  In Europe everyone charges what's needed to pay the staff, with varying tip/no tip cultures. There's no added risk. In the US unless everyone suddenly switched at once (eg. making tipping illegal overnight) then the restaurants that increased prices would be taking a financial risk because it might drive customers away.
  In truth, food price probably works out about the same anyway.. in the US the menu price has service charges tax and another 20% added on top of that for a tip. In Europe the price on the menu is what you pay. . it already includes everything except the tip, and tipping is voluntary for good service (depending on country, Europe isn't one culture).

Found it by the "helens shazzy" https://www.jonandvinnys.com/menu I don't live in LA so everything I see is based solely on the website. I read zero google reviews.l and just dove right in. TLdr -op you got finessed. Stop eating here my guy.
It seems by their website that fee is ONLY mentioned on the wine page (also based on this receipt and op statement, this fee is EXCLUSIVE to wine buyers for some reason) where they also charge a $50 corkage fee (most normal restaurants are 20-40), and also stock rotates "so frequently we can't maintain an updated list" which seems silly, but maybe stock at all 3 locations changes often enough that this really would would be a pain. The restaurant itself is....all over the place. Italian, and breakfast foods? But also there's Helen's Winery attached? And on weekends they act as a bakery? And they have "pizza classes" for $650? Idk they have several "sister" type restaurants that are either owned by the same owner or its some kind of franchising thing, but they're all equally VERY expensive for the food you get. Very upscale. For example [buttermilk pancakes, salted butter, maple syrup 16.25] compared to IHOP "chicken and pancakes" for $14 where you get not just 2 pancakes and butter, but 2 drumsticks. ADDITIONALLY on the Wine page "Modifications are politely declined." what does this even mean? No changes to wine? Or no modifications to your MENU? Dawg if I'm paying you 20.50 for a rigatoni, you're not putting "broccolini" in it.This shit ain't mom's house where I go to bed hungry if I don't like it. I sit at the big kids table and get a big kid fork.
For those just reading the slip, these are indeed all full dishes (not just single line items), in LA where everything costs more. Overall 0/10 I wouldn't eat here based on all this above, before even being infuriated by the "we pass the bill to you" shtick. I'm mildly infuriated just reading through this website.
- WTH is a corkage fee?
  
  A few charged for opening a bottle of wine. It used to only be charged if you brought your own bottle to the restaurant.

When I worked delivery, at multiple places, we did in fact not see a dime of this fee. Got chewed out by customers a couple of times over it though.

Are you paying your servers a living wage or not? If yes, I'm not tipping.

This is a fascist tactic to turn people against the servers and shame those who want higher wages
- Huh? It’s just greedy owners. Don’t overthink it
- "fascist tactic"??? What's up with the '70s commie speak?

Wait, $17 for Lettuce??
- What the devil?
  
  Insert copypasta

There better be a big noticeable sign at the entrance telling you this. Otherwise, this is a bait and switch scam. Advertising one price, giving the service, and then changing the price. You can't advertise a price and then charge more for it without ensuring that the customer is informed about it. The only exception is tax, since it is something the average person should already expect. Even mandatory gratuity for large parties has to be communicated ahead of time. And this specifically says it's not gratuity, it's a charge for the service.
As soon as a customer is served something, it's too late. You can't just put it on the bill. Doesn't matter what they say it's for either. It's not your responsibility to pay the servers anymore than it's your responsibility to separately pay for the ingredients of the food. Unless they want to detail it all out up front. But then you'd see the huge profit margin.

Is it even legal to force you to pay more than the menu reads? I know tipping 18% is a social norm now in the states, but you can technically say no to that. Can you say no to this service tax?
- The menu clearly states the service fee.
  
  I love how they try to do it over the "per CA State law" clause so it seems like they're forced to charge that.
  Is this a law for all restaurants?
  
  “Per CA state law, water is only served upon request”
  Because we all know that the biggest contributor to the water crisis: glasses of water sitting untouched at restaurant tables.
  
  No need to "tip" then, already included.
- Tipping isn't really a social norm as much as it is a social imperative-- the food is considerably cheaper than it should be because you're expected to make up the cost difference in tips.
  
  A companies shitty business model is not the responsibility of the customer.
  
  It is a social norm. Prices at restaurants are not cheap even without including tips, the amount tipped is decided by social norms, and if i get a shitty service i sure as hell dont tip.

The crazy thing is, Los Angeles' minimum wage is already 16.78, and restaurants are required to pay servers at least minimum wage in California. None of this lower minimum for tipped workers. So they are adding at least 18% to that, unless the 18% service fee brings their workers up to minimum wage, which is dishonest, but wouldn't put it past a restaurant to do. After all that, they have the gall to sti ask for a tip!?! It's beyond bs.
- if the waiter gets all the 18% (lol) thats more than an hours wage for a table. and then tip expected on top.
  Sorry, the whole system over there is just bonkers. drop the tips and charges and just pay fair and be done with it. that actually seems like a semi reasonable minimum wage too tbh, although without any tipping could go a few dollars higher

Did you pay $16.95 for lettuce? Tf kinda restaurant did you go to?
- think of it as a very expensive salad. it was good but.... not $17 good.
  
  Idk, I don't even pay that much for kosher food and the smallest and cheapest kosher burger I've ever seen cost $5 with $10 being closer to the average
- A nice one. :)

I've stopped going to restaurants because of shit like this.
- My favorite Mexican place that I've been eating at for 15+ years is still offering a fair price. I've never really paid attention to prices before but it's been a real kick in the balls lately to dine out! My wife and I can eat there for $20. Vegetable fajita and garden quesadilla with waters. Their delicious salsa is made in house too, not sure about the chips. The kitchen doesn't always hit a home run but most of the time it's phenomenal. Not kidding, I feel like I'm taking advantage of them, $20! That's literally what I paid on date night in 1994.

OP post the QR code, I would love to know what restaurant this is, so I can stay clear away.
- https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge
  
  At its core, the service charge is about driving change in our industry – helping ensure our business can thrive in challenging economic environments and compensating each member of our team in a more equitable way – in a way that uniformly increasing our food prices doesn’t allow for. 
  I don't understand what the difference is between adding the service charge and increasing prices. Literally no justification for this, just a "trust us, bro".

Wow. Fuck that restaurant. Fuck it to death. Fuck it to hell. Fuck it F O R E V E R. This shit should be illegal. If this is permanently part of the price IT SHOULD BE THE LIST PRICE ON THE ITEMS. PERIOD.
- And that is why in some places in the world, service fee is illegal.

This is bonkers. Just include it in the price... I would definitely refuse it and have done it one time, when it was not clearly stated in the menu that service will be added. The waiter claimed it is "a standard fee". No, it's not and should never be.

All I want to know is .. What the flying fuck is a "shazzy" and is it delicious?
- I love to spread the shazzy on the LA woman
  
  I spread the shazzy on the kids' shells. It's delicious!

…only mildly infuriating?!
At least this restaurant due is showing their own ass.

I thought bait and switch was illegal in the USA.

I think it's okay if there's a service charge, but it should be obvious like this and tipping afterwards shouldn't even be brought up. It's not the best solution for everyone but it's a step in the right direction of no fucking tipping

The woman was cheap though
- They should serve something with her though. I never saw a woman so alone.

$22.50 for kids shells? Please tell me where this is so I can never go there.

Ok yeah what you are complaining about is valid but I can't get over the $22.50 for Kids Shells... Like a fucking a pasta serving for children?! This restaurant seems insane to begin with.
Edit: Realizing it looks like prices are a line off but still $16 for kids food?

Demand they give the service charge to the server. I’ve done this with a manager recently and he was so embarrassed when it was brought to public attention he promised he would. Then I said, it was simply disgraceful to see an attempt to double dip with a mandatory charge a server wouldn’t see. But I’m a large man, so might not be easy for everyone.

Turns out my local casinos restaurant does this aswell but its called a forced gratuity.

Those prices are bloody insane to begin with. >22$ plus tax for chicken wings??? I can eat for 3 days just for that.

I live in a Asia where service fees of 10% are normal with no tipping culture.
I can see why people may think 18% is too much, but honestly tipping culture should just be gone entirely. Waiters shouldn't have to rely on customer tips, which can vary for different reasons even ones that may be outside their control, to earn a living wage.
- Forgive my ignorance but what's the difference between a service fee and tip in this context?
  
  A tip is consensual
  
  You must pay the service fee.
  Also, usually the fee is a stated amount - with tip, you pick the amount (though you get guilt trippee into picking higher amounts).

Let the manager know that you won't be returning and make sure they understand why, then never return.

There's already a service charge, why tip more?

I will bet you that the servers do not see a dime of this 18% service charge.
That's exactly why so many restaurants are adding service charges nowadays. It's a way to legally take tip money from servers.

It's great if they include it in the bill, it gets rid of the tipping culture. If they still ask you for tips then tell them to GTFO
- They should then adjust their prices by 18% on all items and not have this bullshit on the receipt. Let the customer choose when ordering how much they are willing to spend instead of this. It will make the process much clearer and avoid confrontation. Bad judgement on the owners.
  
  I agree, but I'm okay with this as a compromise. I'm in Seattle and we've been fighting tipping culture for a while now. I'll take an 18% fee over those bullshit "suggested tips" that are now starting at 25%
- Exactly...
  This to me sounds like ;
  A High tax
  A High tip
  A High hidden fee
  ((At least to me ... I am not poor, but I am cheap / frugal at least when it comes to food))
- I think the service charge bit, that is widespread as an alternative to tipping in Europe, makes a lot of sense in general.
  Key word in the above sentence is: alternative

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