Incels need more mental health help - Swansea University report
Incels need more mental health help - Swansea University report
Research says involuntary celibate men make "fundamental errors" about what women want in a partner.
Research says involuntary celibate men make "fundamental errors" about what women want in a partner.
We all need more mental health help because *gestures broadly at everything.*
118Also, mental health care is not going to solve problems caused by economic issues.
26Came here thinking of a way to say exactly that so . . . uh . . same?
4I don't know about you but I do find my health a little mental
2
I can see that. These guys don't know how to date/flirt etc they didn't have the same milestones others kids did. They should have learned when everyone in their cohort was learning. Imagine if you didn't learn the fundamentals of any subject but had to keep going to harder and harder levels. End up with the dating mind of a 13 year old trying to deal with 23 year olds. Of course you need experience to get experience like a fucking zen riddle so they fall even further behind. Partners don't want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man's body.
48To be honest, dating 20+ is a shit show. The things i learned about dating in my teens didn't help me dating in my 30's. Sure they have issues dating but we all do. It's the willingness to learn, adapt, and care for someone else that i don't see in incels and that isn't learned from dating in your teens. They seem to blame outside forces for their issues and not seek to improve themselves
26Well for me it made a big difference. I don't think me and my wife would have stayed together had it not been for other woman I had dated prior. Learned how to have an argument, how to show random acts of kindness, gotten the nerve up to tell them when they are hurting you unintentionally, etc. This stuff didn't come naturally to me.
7You can only blame yourself so much before it causes so much emotional anguish that you turn your frustration outwards.
5I'm gonna take issue with that last point because one of the easiest ways to identify an incel is how much they watch Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, or Andrew Tate. All of which built their brand by preaching self-help tips (fucking awful self-help tips and always laced with violent hateful rhetoric but still). I think they desperately want to improve but they've built up so much internal constraint and flawed ideology that no advice catered to that toxic mindset is going to be effective at what they really want to accomplish. What they actually need is a real mental health professional to lead them to identifying and breaking down those ideologies and frameworks for themselves. But therapy is for Betas and real Alphas are hyper independent or whatever.
4
Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.
nor should they be required to; the enormous amount of work we put on women to make relationships work is already crushing. This reminds me of the screeds about how "liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they'll need to date conservatives of course!" - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT. They feel they're being DISCRIMINATED against for their views hahahaha, that's how fucked up they are. https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/07/12/political-discrimination-as-civil-rights-struggle/
it's obscene.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3675477-young-women-are-trending-liberal-young-men-are-not/
13“liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!” - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT.
I think I know where this argument is coming from, but it's a gross misrepresentation of what was actually said. Neither of your links support that anyone thinks this is the case. In fact, from the very conservative one, even without having access to the full article, they very explicitly note, after having said that only 6% of college women would date a trump supporter "While people are free to discriminate however they wish in dating, this attitude bleeds into problematic spheres such as hiring and social toleration." It's clear that they are trying to make the argument that this dating bias is an indication of a deeper bias. It's still dumb, but I've yet to hear anyone of merit actually argue "liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!"
2
This right there is the source of most of my anxiety
6I am not sure exactly what to advise, I imagine the longer you don't do something about this the worst is going to get. So maybe be proactive?
2
This is exactly my situation and it seems to get more dire every year that I stay single. I wish I could upvotes you a thousand times.
3Hey man, I had some of the same anxieties about being a late bloomer, never finding a girl, not knowing what to do if someone showed interest etc. This will probably not be new advice to you, but here we go:
No matter how old you are, it‘s never too late to start things. Go out and have some fun, socialize with women, try dating, do hobbies with women involved etc. Invest in yourself, have a basic level of hygiene and dress socially acceptable. At some point you will find someone who is into you, and if you are open and up front about your lack of experience, they will probably overlook most of the early dating blunders.
Just don’t go into it all with the expectation that something has to happen, or that if you do the right things someone has to be into you. It’s ok to fail, it’s ok to be awkward, you learn a lot from it.
If you wanna talk privately about this stuff, shoot me a dm.
3
I'll go ahead and file that one under "No shit."
48"People are saying that the reason that incels struggle to find relationships and sex is because their standards are too high, and what we were able to demonstrate here is, compared to our group of men that weren't incel, actually their minimum mate preferences were a lot lower. " the article and the study are more interesting than the headline
12
Malignant misogyny isn't mental illness.
We can address problems with male alienation, isolation, and loneliness without having to coddle terrorist reactionaries.
36No but that doesn't mean it doesn't need addressing
19that depends on what you mean by addressing - there's a ton of apologism for incels, as if they're being persecuted.
So yeah, there's a spectrum here and women accepting abusive and misogynist partners is definitely in the right wing playbook.
7I think you'll find that when you have what you need and dissolving that which you need not, there's way less room for crap like racism and the -phobias
3
No but it can absolutely be a trauma response.
10I’m not entirely sure they’re fully unrelated either though.
6
They needed a report to figure that out?
29Even though we all knew that stuff falls to the ground if you leave it unsupported, we still needed someone to gather some scientific data, find reasons why and prove that gravity exists. That’s just how science works.
12Well yeah, that's the scientific process.
Things have to be investigated and tested, even when they seem obvious.
Usually things turn out as expected, but you also need to remember - at one point it was "obvious" that bad smells caused the bubonic plague and that leeches could cure a wide range of diseases. Sometimes what we consider obvious is actually a load of shit.
Besides, reports like this can tell us how effective getting that support might be, if it's feasible to do on a large scale, etc.
2It's simplier to do report about thing mostly everybody already know than finding real solution
-8
Yeah, try telling them that and see how far it gets you....
25“HEY BILL GIT THE TORTURE DEVICES READY”
2
I wonder if this outlook is more a sign that these people need some help getting started and in a productive tradjectory. Pretty sure this would be me if I hadn't gotten laid+decent-pay, and had to live with family/random people, never having anything of my own...
20I don't know about that. I was pretty fine before my first. Place of your own and decent pay. Yeah. everyone needs that. Adults should be able to at a minimum have an efficency of their own while being able to pay at least minimal bills and if they split a multibedroom with roommates or rent out a room from a house they should be able to have a bit more spendy of a life. That should be the minimum and be easy to get. Not something you have to work hard to achieve.
9
I mean there's so many underlying issues with incels and trying to overcome learned helplessness is no small task. But an idea that helped me was that there is either a problem with me and what I'm doing, or there's a problem with all women. One of those issues I can take steps to try and improve, the other is completely out of my control and nothing I do will ever change that.
If you are incapable or unwilling to go through an honest introspection of yourself then things will never change for you imo.
15To a degree they do. It isn't just mental health though.
5Someone should told me about being an incel before I got my 3 kids.. dammit. I'm spending a lot in child care.
-1I definitely feel like this in an entire simplication of an issue.
It's just the old "someone does something wrong they are entirely to blame" fallacy. Or the old standby of "men are to blame for this"
I definitely feel they have some accurate readings on the world. Girls do fuck around with a small group of men who have an abnormal amount of partners, then settle years later when shes not as desirable. Girls do get to go for athletic guys, if you're an arsehole it will get you places in life including with girls, girls only like boys that are tall and will tell that to everyone. (I genuinely think this is one of the worst everyday norms in society. Tell short men he would be attractive if he was tall is okay eventhough they can't change it. But saying a fat girl would be hotter if she lost weight is awful, eventhough she can control that).
I'm lucky that I must have been at least somewhat in the top half of men 6ft+, good at sports, good in school, somehow I can be charismatic and funny eventhough I have wondered if I got autism. But I can definitely see the system. I can definitely agree with some of the points people have made online and see the horrible ways guys have been treated and see that people have it worse than I do.
So I don't think they are fully to blame for all this. Some of it is society degrading, some of it is increasing competition, some of it unrealistic expecting from women, some of it is that "men are to blame" and "women are innocent" in all matters, and some of it is actually they need to sort their shit out. But putting it all on the last point and acting like they are mental isn't right, they have a point and need to deal with it better but society also needs to treat men and boys better. Young white men in the UK are worse of than anyone when it comes to careers but you will constantly see everyone being given a leg up instead of young white males, even white males can't apply for some jobs.
My personal opinion is we need to bring back men and boys only spaces. The best and most supportive times, where I got the most growth where in boys only clubs like scouts and the rugby club. But when you get older unless you got a guy only friendship group this doesn't exist. I think it is a requirement for most guys mental health.
Taking from that article
" incel mental health was "through the floor", with 20% having daily thoughts of suicide and high levels of loneliness.
In addition, he said a quarter would be offered immediate antidepressants or therapy if they completed an NHS depression screening form"
Men are lonely. I know let's drug them. This is the point, why not advocate for some men only socialising. Plus my problems with girls was helped a lot from other guys. Guys still have to be the ones to initiate with women and my social anxiety was so high. But having you friends saying "go on. She's looking at you. Go talk to her. Stop being a fucking pussy and just do it" Then if you get pushed back you get the "aw don't worry about it mate, it happens to us all. Have a beer, you'll feel better. I thought you was in, but fuck it you'll get someone else" that support from men is I think the only thing that allowed me to talk to women as more than just friends.
-10You have very aptly demonstrated the core problem with the incel worldview: that women are somehow fundamentally different from men to the point that they are women first, and barely human.
The Venn diagram of traits of women and men is almost a completely overlapping circle. They aren't some alien species with different fundamental needs, drives, and capabilities.
The problem with men-only spaces isn't that they are only men. It is that they have been used historically to bar women from participating in things that would give them power.
You don't need to exclude women to give men access to male friendships. It's just that men are unused to having to work for emotional things when women are present. It's time for them to take initiative and learn to treat women like human beings instead of objectives.
14I think your core problem is that just because women are different you think that must mean they are somehow less valuable.
It is a completely reasonable position to think most men are different to most women at least in some ways.
To think the way men bond and the way women bond to be the same is completely misguided. Sure you could do it the same and you could have relationship that are built the same. But I haven't roughhoused with my female friend or called them half the things I called my male friends.
Historical issues are no reflection of present issues. So if men need something, doesnt have to be this in particular but assuming they do need something, if women have indirectly suffered from it now men are not allowed that ever again? Why do women get women only places but men can't, if we are so equal as you make out?
I don't know why you are making out women are treated like objects. That is not the case at all you just pulled that out your arse to try win an argument. I've been friends with boys and girls my entire life. Just had female friends, had mixed groups and had men only friendship groups. The men only friendship groups have been a lot different and a lot more supportive so I think men need them. But apparently men needing anything in life is a crime. See how the incels are right with some things?
3