1y ago

Just a little compromise

135 comments

Needs more blaming the West
- yup, cuz remember russia haaaas to do this because nato keeps encroaching on them!!11!1!1
- Here you go:
  
  Honestly, it seems like everyone in that place wants to kill everyone else. You could swap the sides in that meme and it'd still make sense.
  
  No one that I know of from the West has tried for compromise in Palestine since the 1990s. The sign should say "We stand with Israel! Here's some weapons." Biden putting sanctions on like 4 people somehow counts as this revolutionary sign of progress, and they're still in the middle of blowing up the last of the medical facilities.

I love when people claiming to be communists defend the hyper capitalist modern Russia. I have my criticisms of the ussr, but it’s dead and buried and Russia is as much the Russian Soviet as the Russian Soviet was Czarist Russia.
- Tankies don't have anyone they can root for that's coherently communist or socialist anyways. China isn't really, Russia is just an oligopoly with one guy on top for life (if you substitute land ownership with ownership of sectors of the economy then Russia looks a lot like a feudal monarchy).
  Their one immutable belief is the "US bad". That's it. That's their speed of light. Everything else must twist to maintain that position. If Ukraine elected a pro-western leader, it MUST be a CIA coup. They couldn't have possibly chosen that for themselves because "US bad". If Russia starts an offensive war of conquest it can't just be their fault, they must have been provoked.
  Before Russia invaded Ukraine they could pretend like only evil capitalist countries invade others. The invasion broke them since they have to someone maintain that position while also justifying the invasion , again, because US bad. This is really all they have now.
  
  So, here's how US bad: the US for several years has been provoking Russia by inviting Ukraine into NATO with no actual intent on letting them in. We've used them to offload massive stockpiles of old military equipment and secured all rebuilding of Ukraine to US companies. As soon as the Ukrainians start advancing, the US begins to fail on its commitments.
  It's possible to center ones ideals around the US being bad while also believing that Russia is bad.
  
  So, capitalism good now?
- "Critical support", they'll say, with an absolute lack of criticism.
  
  That shit kills me. I was reading something on hexbear about some recent anti-gay stuff in Russia. It was all about critical support, and not just Russia. They also talked about critical support for Nigeria, despite them having the death penalty for gay people, because they're "anti-imperialist."
  Why doesn't it go the other way? Why can't you give "critical support" to countries making strides in human rights while criticizing their economic policy?
  To me, their priorities seem pretty fucked up. Between exploitative economic policy and killing or imprisoning people for existing as themselves, I know which one I'm going to be "critical" of and which one will cause me to refuse support for a country in any way.
- Being anti-imperialist is usually the determining factor of tankie (“critical”) support. Being against the US is apparently how you are anti-imperialist, so if you decide to conquer an American ally to grow an empire, you are apparently anti-imperialist. I guess that’s where you “critically” support them by cheering.
  I don’t get it.
  
  In Germany the Left has been divided into Antiimps (Antiimperialists) and Antideutsche (Antigermans) since the 90s. Antiimps being pro Palestine, Anti-USA, western Imperialism, NATO etc.. and Antideutsche being pro Israel, pro USA and against a united (or any kind of) Germany.
  Of course those positions developed over the years, but they still explain where and how those 'new' perspectives came to be. Worth to read into it.

Putin be unironically

It's hard to avoid a "no true scottsman" with the current state of bots and propaganda accounts.
But as far as I can tell, there are hardly any lefties, or even tankies, who unironically support Russia or even a middle ground position. Despite their hate of the west, Russia is clearly the greatest evil here.
Most of the middle ground positions I see come from fox news.
- That's because your instance has blocked hexbear and lemmygrad.
  
  Maybe. But previously when I engaged with people making this same claim, when they provided their evidence (a link to a hexbear post) and I actually spent the effort to verify it, it was trivially clear that their evidence was wrong, and when I showed that to them, they blew up and blocked me from the entire community (they were a mod).
  Since then I've been pretty skeptical of people making this claim.
- Try engaging with the tankie communities more, though I suspect your instance has them defederated if you get an impression this distorted.
- But as far as I can tell, there are hardly any lefties, or even tankies, who unironically support Russia or even a middle ground position. Despite their hate of the west, Russia is clearly the greatest evil here.
  Unfortunately, I can attest to a great many tankies who unironically support Russia or a 'middle ground' position. I could post examples all day long and not run out. At least, not run out of examples. I'd run out of will to live pretty quickly.
  
  The last time someone said that to me, they sent me a post from hexbear that was clearly a joke, and when I showed them where it said it was a joke, they blocked me.
- I see you misspelled Putin twice.
  But as far as I can tell, there are hardly any lefties, or even tankies, who unironically support Putin or even a middle ground position. Despite their hate of the west, Putin is clearly the greatest evil here.
  Here you go
- I think any argument for peace and negotiations and compromise with Russia is met with overwhelming downvotes. Worse on reddit, pacifism is seen only in controversial now. The above meme is clearly pro-war propaganda too, as to prevent any rational discussion. It's total victory or death.
  If you're a pacifist, you're treated as a communist-nazi.
  
  If you're a pacifist, you're treated as a communist-nazi.
  If you're advocating that Ukraine should lay down its arms before clear security guarantees are in place, or at the loss of its territory you may as well be a "communist-nazi".
  
  You perfectly distilled this entire thread.

The historical experience of the USSR was a brainrot on communists. Having a bias for Soviet nationalism is already bad enough, but imagine letting that evolve into Russian nationalism. Defend the same right of self-determination for Ukraine you would have defended for Vietnam 60 years ago.
- I was under the impression that Vietnam didn’t want to join the capitalist west. Is that what Ukraine wants?
  
  Vietnam mostly didn't want to be occupied by a foreign army. They resisted the occupation by Japan after WWII and when that war ended and the Japanese left they liked not being ruled over by foreigners.
  But then when France got a military together they returned to Vietnam to resume where they left off with the colonialism thing they did before the war.
  The Vietnamese didn't like that. They asked for US support in resisting French colonialism, because the US resisted British colonialism in the past. US wasn't going to go against France, interests in Europe took priority over interests in Asia.
  So Vietnam needed an outside backer. So who do they go to.
  Remember that the last foreign power Vietnam has fought against was not the US. They had a war in Cambodia and a war with China after the US left. I'm not an expert on Vietnam, but there's a whole lot more going on there than the US-Vietnam war and the propaganda around communist domino theory would have you to believe. Yeah they invaded Cambodia, but that was because Pol Pot was an insane psychopath. After the Khmer Rouge was defeated they left. Turns out Vietnam wasn't really all about spreading their version of their communist ideal, they kinda just did't want people from elsewhere telling them how to run things. Not Japan, not France, not the US, and no not even China.
  The analogy between Vietnam and Ukraine is an apt one. A lot of people going around talking about domino theories and spheres of influence and talking like you're stupid if you don't understand the things coming from the brilliant mind of Henry Kissinger. Trying to make it fit into an ideological framework. It seems the people of Vietnam were too "stupid" to understand the brilliant analysis coming from people elsewhere. Ukrainians seem like they may be the same kind of "stupid" as the Vietnamese were. While everyone else is talking ideology and spheres of influence, they just go on shooting at foreign invaders. But in the end, who are the ones being stupid? The Vietnamese didn't seem very stupid from my perspective and the Ukrainians don't seem stupid either. Simple non-ideological motives are way more powerful than ideological motives.

The sad truth is how brained washed and suppressed the people are in Russia. Things could be much better if that was not the case. Any idea on how to let them free?

As a Ukraine supporter since the beginning, it's Biden and congress who deserve criticism. They should have given Ukraine all the tools to win. They also should have protected Ukrainian airspace and her coast along the Black Sea. With full support, I think Ukraine had good shot of expelling the Russian invaders but that window is over. US leaders are now saying it was about hurting Russia, it wasn't about Ukraine winning. That tells me meaningful US support is over.
The West is a failing system unable to reverse it's inequities. It's supporters can only attack critics for pointing out the warning signs. What a sad ass meme.
- Yes, what a sad meme for criticizing the idea of compromise between genocidaires and their victims. How horrible.
  
  The meme is a strawman and there isn't a contingent of leftist leaders shaping NATO's Ukraine policy.
  If you care about Ukranians, why not focus on the actual power dynamics in the region?
- The West is a failing system unable to reverse it’s inequities.
  Yep. Can't repair her own issues and can't do the right thing even when it is easy.

It appears the meme is saying there are tankies advocating for a compromise.
What would a compromise bring about...?
- One person want you dead, you would like to be alive and healthy, so I guess a compromise is half dead.
  1 HP and two levels of exhaustion with the poisoned condition.
- Genocide in areas 'compromised' on, what do you think

sees putin's swastika on russian flag
Looks like another piece of putin's propaganda that wants to create illusion of pro-war majority.

Yah, that went great the last time, didn't it?
See: Holomodor
- Exactly how I'm thinking. If something like the Holomodor is your compromise position, you might be an insane tankie.
- Yeah, it turns out when a small group of people own all the grain and cattle for an entire country, they'll probably demand more and more money until you can't afford to feed people anymore. Then, if you try to cease the grain and cattle to give to the people, the few rich farm owners will probably burn all the grain and slaughter all the cattle because if they can't make a profit, then people should starve. Rough times.

It should make sense for Russian communist to make this compromise no? Destroying the Ukrainian state and having it assimilate to theirs should be harking back to the old USSR days.

The compromise: Russia gets international recognition of its claims on Crimea and the Dombas, Ukraine get admitted into NATO and enough nukes to glass Moscow should Russia try to take 1 cm more of Ukrainian soil.
Congratulations Putin, you killed 300000 of your own people for a bunch of mined farms and a warm water port that gets blocked by Turkey the second war is declared - and you are too big a coward to go up against any nuclear country, so I guess go pick on Geogia?
- Any compromise that gives Russia even an inch of ukranian soil should be deemed unacceptable. Fucking armchair geopolitical experts trading off a sovereign nation's territory.
  
  There are cases when cession of territory should be considered as a means of obtaining a lasting peace.
  1/6th of the country to an aggressor state trying to commit genocide that has done this twice before and gone back on its word both times is, obviously, not a reasonable option.

People of donbass: we rather wouldnt live with the terror of right wing death squads.
- So we prefer full scale invasion, execution in the street, total destruction of our cities and abduction of our children
  Setting aside the validity of the "death squad" propaganda, do you really believe that those people would prefer total war conditions?
  On second thought, don't answer that. There's no good faith from people like you who gloss over the horrors of war.
  
  "Its either fascist terrorism or total war" you do know who you sound like right?
- I've asked this a few different times, and if you're willing to answer, you'd be the first. How many people died to these death squads, in what year(s)?
  I suspect a particular reason for the unwillingness to give a precise answer, but let's see what you say.
  Edit: No answer. I am not surprised.
  
  No answer because I was busy with other shit lol. It's not terribly hard to find either, here is a good overview of ukrainian fascism. CW for dead bodies, gruesome heartbreaking stuff.
  https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/07/29/what-the-u-s-government-and-the-new-york-times-have-quietly-agreed-not-to-tell-you-about-ukraine/
  Edit:
  Actually just look through these reports: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents-listing?field_content_category_target_id[180]=180&field_content_category_target_id[182]=182&field_geolocation_target_id[1136]=1136&field_entity_target_id[1349]=1349&field_entity_target_id[1350]=1350&field_published_date_value[min]=&field_published_date_value[max]=&sort_bef_combine=field_published_date_value_DESC&page=1
  in particular this one
  https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/OHCHRThematicReportUkraineJan2014-May2016_EN.pdf
- If even remotely true: then feel free to go back to Russia.
  That's like a chunk of New Jersey saying they want to go back to England lmao.
  Besides, the referendum was illegimate and conducted at the point of a gun.
  
  That’s like a chunk of New Jersey saying they want to go back to England lmao.
  We have decided that this is going to happen, but only for Camden. Also we get Manhattan.
- They always have an account on hexbear, every single time, they could at least use a different username
  
  You'll note that this account is older. My hexbear account is an alt of this one, not the other way around.

135 comments