Skill
Ever seen someone doing their "unskilled job" all their life? It's just fucking magic!
The truth is that capitalists hate skilled workers, because those workers have bargaining power. This is why they love the sort of automation which completely removes workers or thought from the equation, even if the ultimate solution is multiple times more expensive or less competent than before.
Nothing is more infuriating to a boss, than a worker that can talk back with experience.
Yes there are. You can be a trained retail worker in a few hours in most cases. Same with many farming jobs. Same with working the line at fast food. They still work hard and it doesn't mean they don't deserve a living wage.
There is more to it than that. You may be able to be trained in a few hours, but mastery and efficiency come with time. Someone who works in retail or farming can output more productivity in a shorter amount of time than an average person. It's not about how long it takes to train someone to start the job, it's the mastery you learn over time. As you do a job longer, your productivity increases, as you move deeper and develop more skill at the job.
There is no such thing as unskilled labor.
Of course people tend to get better with experience. But the retail worker who gets trained in 2 days can be reasonably good at the job within a few weeks and an expert in a few months.
Compare that to the years of training required prior to the first day on the job for an engineer or a doctor, who also get better with experience.
The thing is, “unskilled” jobs have a huge worker pool. Just about anyone can do it. Perhaps not that well, but it doesn’t matter much how well you do it for most of these jobs. Take a cashier. At best you might be twice as effective as the “normal worker”. Then compare that to what people call “skilled jobs”. Say a civil engineer. Here, your “normal worker” straight up can’t do it without years of training, and failure costs lives. For this reason, “skilled jobs” have a tiny worker pool and of those, only a few are adequate. It’s only natural that these few would ask for and receive a much larger pay. That’s not to say that “unskilled workers” shouldn’t be paid a living wage, but in a capitalist world, they will always be paid less.
You can be a trained retail worker in a few hours in most cases. Same with many farming jobs. Same with working the line at fast food
Retail workers have to deal with irate customers, develop product knowledge, and how to sell items. Fast food workers need to learn how to work as a team, make the food at a consist quality, and juggle multiple orders at once.
As for farm workers, if they are working with animals: how to read the animals for their behavior, treat minor injuries of animals, and how to manage animals.
I will agree that all labor deserve a living wage.
You can be a trained retail worker in a few hours in most cases.
So the job doesn't require any skill but still needs training?
And all retail workers are equally good, there is no skill difference that makes some better at the job than others?
Yes, a few hours training. Easily replaced because it requires little skill. 10 year olds do this in mom and pop shops all the time. If your point is even a 10 year old has skills, then bravo, I can't muster the energy to argue over pendantic linguistics.
And no, not all workers are equally good, and that's why some companies hire these folks at higher rates and typically get reclassified as an industry subject matter expert or move on to more senior roles, again, which didn't get classified as unskilled. Or they get fired for being slower than their peers
From my experience in both the workforce and reading the news, I feel like CEO is a strong candidate for "unskilled job". I mean, when someone can simultaneously be the CEO for a major car company, a major rocket company, a brain implant company, and an infrastructure company, and be the owner, CTO and Executive Chairman of a major social media company, while still having time to spend all day xitting out their unhinged thoughts to the world, CEO has to be the easiest job in all of humanity.
Add 'landlord' to the list of unskilled jobs
It's not easy. You have to be completely dead inside and ready to fire all your coworkers at a moment's notice!
Some jobs require more skill, and some workers are more skilled. You can't get around that fact. That doesn't mean anyone should be making poverty wages. I think it's fair though that workers are paid more for learning skills. That can be either though paying them more at work, or paying them while they are in education. Note I don't just mean free education, I mean actually giving them money to study. That's the only way to make paying skilled and unskilled workers the same a fair system.
I disagree. A skill is a skill. Some are more skilled than others IN THE SAME SKILL. You cannot objectively compare a different skill with another. If a skill required to do surgery is "more" than flipping a burger, then being good at surgery means you are magically good at flipping burgers, but that is not the case.
Some skills take longer to acquire. Much longer. Some require certain aptitudes. As you say you can be more skilled than another worker at the same job, because you have more experience, training, aptitude, or you just care more. How is paying them all the same in any way fair?
Oh yes and some people have a greater number of skills than others. How is that not being more skilled than another?
I think the big part of it is the required time it takes to be considered competent. Like for arguments sake lets throw out cost of education. The amount of time and effort it takes to be considered a competent surgan is hundreds of times longer than training a competent burger flipper.
Even with grilling there is different skill levels. A professional chef/smoker takes a long time to hone their art.
I think everyone should be paid a living wage, but when people throw trained professionals that require years of experience in with cashiers or fast food cooks it really subtracts from their argument.
We should be trying to elevate all jobs to a living wage while recognizing some jobs are just harder. Otherwise no one will listen.
If you can learn your job well enough after a week or so to do it satisfactorily, it's an unskilled job.
There are definitely unskilled jobs. When I was a cart attendant at Target, I was in an unskilled job. If someone with less than two weeks training were left to do one of the jobs I have now, people would literally die.
So like a CEO?
Implying CEOs learn anything
The urgency or criticality of the job is not what makes it unskilled.
One can argue that an unskilled supermarket employee can cause economic hardship, or even death (think food poisoning).
There's no such thing as an unskilled job.They all require training and in all of them you become better as you learn more about that skill. How you learn that skill, in practice or in theory is irrelevant.
Likewise, the fact that some businesses are OK to eat economic losses in bad workers and turnover in order to keep the worker dis-empowered does not make the job "unskilled"
I agree that all jobs need some training, but I think the termology is the real enemy. Like yes a cashier needs training but is it comparable to what is considered "skilled labor/trades" like qualified electriction, plumbers, welders, engineers, etc?
I think everyone should make a living wage and think the terminology is definitely used to oppress and divide but whenever I see these arguments it really feels like people don't see a distinction between the amout of work/time it takes to be competent in these jobs.
Thoughts on “[significantly] less skilled“?:
And I made a career in IT from googling shit and remember the steps. Dont see the difference....
Skilled labor is just compressed unskilled labor, at the end of the day labor is labor.
Unskilled jobs? You mean CEOs and politicians?
Only skill required for that is lying with a smile
Exactly. Every job has it's own skills, whether that be mental, physical, or both.
There's not a single job on Earth that you could plop someone into with no practuce and have them instantly be good at it - if someone tells you otherwise they're either incompetent or they're lying (like stated in the above meme)
Yes. Society needs to show more appreciation for every worker.
"Burger flippers wanting more than a insert other job here, ridiculous" crowd when everybody else's wages also go up
What about the, "job" of rich kid celebrity that just exists to be chased by media and brands all day? I feel like you could put anyone in that position with zero training and they'd be fine.
While I'm not in the business of defending rich folks, but there is a reason a lot of child celebrities tend to go off the deep end - having never being certain of your privacy is probably maddening.
First, I don't think "unskilled jobs" is used correctly most of the time and agree with you 99%. My quibble is that people often say "unskilled jobs" to mean "jobs that can be learned to do adequately without prior experience." Some, not most, of the jobs you show fit that category. I wish we had a corrolary to this meme to express the benefit employers get from employees who become skilled at these roles. Purely economically, if I am a manager who can hire someone who has gained great experience and can hit the job running day 1 at an "unskilled" job instead of having to train and performance manage a truly "unskilled" candidate, it would easily justify a 50-100% pay increase as it reduces the cost of management by more than that.
I think Superstore says it best:
Amy: They're not really gonna replace us! What are they gonna do, find someone who stocks go-backs like Mateo or who works the cash register like Elias?
Myrtle: Yes. Those are both very easy things to do.
The problem is that people generally look down on these types of jobs. Blue collar vs white collar.
Everyone deserves a living thriving wage. You know what's impressive? A cashier who has memorized every produce code whereas I struggle to remember the syntax of a foreach loop and I have to look it up each time. Wtf is a map type?! When did that become a thing?!
Ever seen someone doing their "unskilled job" all their life?
Why yes, yes I have.
Its probably an unpopular opinion considering the comments here, but I think it should be said that maybe it comes easy for alot of people, but being a cook at a fast food joint like Dairy Queen or Culver's absolutely takes a certain amount of skill. Skill not every person has, or can learn.
When a place is busy, takes a certain process of thought patterns and organization to keep track of all the different ingredients on the griddle, what stage they're at while cooking, while ensuring everything is cooked in a timely manner.
Sure, many people can succeed at learning these skills, not everyone can. It is a skill, and honestly, it's slightly upsetting to see people think it's as easy as breathing, when it's just not for some people. If it were actually that simple, you'd never have to check the bag to make sure they got the order right before you drive off and there wouldn't be videos of fast food workers being mistreated for giving some jerk fries instead of onion rings. Ever.
Imo, although there is overlap, both jobs require some skills that different than the other. Typically, surgeons perform, at most, a handful of types of surgery (per surgery), on 1 or 2 people at a time. They know what surgery will be preformed ahead of time, so they can prepare, and there's a typically a set procedure for the deviations or complications that may arise. Successfully improvising is what sets a great surgeon apart. And, if all is going well, they have teams that can stabilize the patient for an extended amount of time. Fast food workers are assembling multiple orders with multiple foods in minutes. It may take a surgeon years to learn proper surgery, but it doesn't mean they have the skill or mindset that is required to flip burgers.
Even if the work itself is easy, dealing with customers is a skill set too. Too many of my friends couldn't hold customer facing jobs because they just couldn't deal with people (understandably).
I'm in that camp too. Customer facing jobs took a huge toll on my mental health that I'm still recovering from, even if I was eventually rather good at it.
It's* probably an unpopular opinion
Thank you for making feel I matter when I was stuck in a “unskilled job”
You do. The most infuriating thing is that there's people out there who would love to do some of these "unskilled jobs" and are very very good at it. But nobody does it out of choice when they would have to endure massive exploitation, not to mention humiliation.
You matter.
And honest work is honest work. That deserves respect regardless of how much education or paperwork or luck it takes to start.
We should remember who is parroting the “unskilled jobs” thing over and over. It’s always capitalists that benefit from paying these folks poverty wages like the meme states. So while the category can be called “unskilled” to differentiate from jobs that require months/years of formal (or informal) training, capitalists use it as an excuse to exploit. Both things can be true at the same time for different reasons.
I learned how to drive a forklift in a day for a stock room. Capitalists would still call it an “unskilled” job because I didn’t put myself into massive debt with a student loan, spending time I don’t have in a classroom. When does that job suddenly become “skilled”? Is there some imaginary threshold capitalists will accept?
Anyone that is contributing to the pool of labor is using a skill of some sort. Whether you think your job is easier than another or not doesn’t matter. All of the voids are filled with people willing to do a skill. CEOs and landlords, on the other hand, are contributing nothing to the labor pool. Simply owning a thing is not skilled work, but they will tell you otherwise, just like they set the standards for what is “skilled” vs “unskilled.” It’s all skewed to benefit the ruling class and give them an excuse to not pay a living wage.
For context, I’m a programmer that has been in the field for 18 years. Until the working class undoes this conditioning and equally supports each other, nothing will change for the better.
There are also so many "skills/abilities" that aren't something you learn in school.
I've found through my experience that I tend to be a more "valuable" employee because not only do I actually give a shit about what I do, but I also care to ask questions and actually learn about my position and how other positions play into my role. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, it's just something I've noticed very very very few people I've worked with do as well.
That's not something I'll ever get paid more for because it's not written on a stupid piece of paper certified by some expensive university, but it's 100% beneficial to the company.
Yeah, exactly. There are tons of people out there that have amazing soft skills and curiosity they don't get paid anything extra to put forward. Now we have this stupid phrase "quiet quitting" for people that are doing exactly what they are paid to do, while contributing nothing over and above. Capitalists will constantly demand the "over and above" in things like annual reviews etc, but they rarely compensate to match it. It's a system where one side holds all of the leverage.
I disagree that CEOs are equivalent to landlords. CEOs do create value by providing direction for the efficient application of resources to solve business problems and leadership and direction to employees. It's not an easy job, by any stretch.
That said, taking skill doesn't mean that CEOs should be entitled to massive take-home pay. I think the "fix" comes in adjusting our taxation system, not CEO compensation. Well, at least so long as we're tied to the profit-seeking corporation structure we're in. A "good" CEO can lead a company to producing significantly more value than a bad CEO, so let them fight for big compensation packages all they want.
The highest marginal tax rate in the US for individuals peaked at 92% in the early 50s. If we had sane marginal income tax rates at higher income levels, then there would be no problem with executive income. (Granted, we also need to fix taxation on other forms of compensation and capital gains, too.)
I would disagree. We all need a living wage even for doing the most unskilled labor. Picking up dog poop or shoveling cow poop from one truck to another. There are jobs that require skills,
But everyone deserves a living wage absolutely.
The problem is capitalism, not the fact that our society has unskilled labor jobs
Yeah, a jobs a job, it should pay a living wage at a minimum. I guess the difference is supply and demand. Anyone can stock shelves at a supermarket, making the employee pool large, meaning they can lower the wage and still get someone desperate.
The government needs to step in and force companies to make that "lower wage" at least liveable.
Although to be honest that may speed up the implementation of robot shelf stockers, which creates another set of problems.
Only "talking back if experienced" is the reason for poverty wages. If they are willing to let us starve for profit, why can't we burn down their homes for bargaining power? Why let them put their value on us in the first place and accept what we are given?
The only idiots that repeat this, are unskilled workers who have no idea what skilled workers do. Just assume they sit in a cubicle and browse Facebook all day for big money.
As others have said, your job is unskilled if you don't need to be trained for many years to do it. A retail worker, in any position, can be trained very easily. Go from McDonald's to Starbucks to Target. Same shit, different company. But from working the till at McDonald's to being a neurosurgeon? Just a surgeon? A doctor of any kind? Yeah, no. That takes training and skill.
You are reverting to the capitalist brainwashing that has been repeated to you for your entire life.
Nobody is arguing that a grocery stocker requires less skill and training than brain surgery. Literally nobody. And yet you people repeat this idea over and over.
I mean this not as an attack on you but a chance to expand your worldview. Cognitive dissonance hurts, and it’s important to recognize when it’s happening so you can ask further questions.
There is no such thing as an “unskilled worker” because all jobs require skill. It’s called human skill, and it’s what enables us to build societies greater than the sum of its citizens.
The logical conclusion you are suggesting is that because some humans are less capable, they don’t deserve basic needs such as a home, reliable transportation, internet, food, utilities, etc.
And if your basic premise starts with the notion that society should not be meeting the basic needs of its people, then there’s only one thing that would convince you anyway.
Lol, you're an idiot. I am a skilled worker. You couldn't do my job to save your life.
Nobody is arguing that a grocery stocker requires less skill and training than brain surgery. Literally nobody. And yet you people repeat this idea over and over.
We know you aren't arguing that every job requires the exact same degree of skill. All that we want to do is say that there are jobs whose required skills are quick to acquire and are therefore easily replaceable. Meanwhile, there are other jobs whose skills take a long time to acquire and are not easily replaceable. We use the term "unskilled labor" to refer to the former group and "skilled labor" to refer to the latter group as a point of convention. When people claim that unskilled labor doesn't exist, they imply that every single job requires skills that are slow to obtain and therefore every worker is difficult to replace, which is clearly false.
I mean this not as an attack on you but a chance to expand your worldview. Cognitive dissonance hurts, and it’s important to recognize when it’s happening so you can ask further questions.
Where is the cognitive dissonance? Where is the contradiction in distinguishing between jobs that require trained applicants and jobs that don't require trained applicants?
There is no such thing as an “unskilled worker” because all jobs require skill. It’s called human skill, and it’s what enables us to build societies greater than the sum of its citizens.
If you decide to use "skilled worker" to mean a worker who has a skill, then you are correct that "unskilled workers" do not exist. Unfortunately, that's not what the phrase "skilled worker" means. If that's how you use the term, then you're talking about something different to everyone else.
The logical conclusion you are suggesting is that because some humans are less capable, they don’t deserve basic needs such as a home, reliable transportation, internet, food, utilities, etc.
The logical conclusion of "unskilled labor exists" is simply that unskilled labor exists. You cannot jump from the observation that "unskilled labor exists" to the claim that "some people don't deserve their basic needs." It's a non sequitur, and it's not a position anyone in this thread would support.
And if your basic premise starts with the notion that society should not be meeting the basic needs of its people, then there’s only one thing that would convince you anyway.
This is a straw man. No one here has expressed the position that society shouldn't meet the basic needs of its people. The position you are arguing against is the position that some jobs require training before hiring and others don't. Again, that's just what people mean when they refer to skilled labor and unskilled labor.
I think you're taking the terms too literally. Unskilled labor doesn't actually mean the jobs require zero skill. It means they can be learned and mastered relatively quickly compared to other jobs. I've had many jobs and I've done both skilled and unskilled labor.
When I worked in retail I was able to learn the job in a day and master it in a month. For my current job as a software engineer I've been learning for over a decade and there's still a lot I don't know. The technology changes rapidly and you have to be constantly learning to keep up. I'm significantly better at my job now than I was when I only had 5 years of experience.
That said, ironically it's people that work in skilled jobs that are generally the biggest advocates of social policies for the good of all. I believe everyone should have all of their basic needs met just for existing, and I would gladly pay more taxes to contribute to that goal.
Some stuff you learn in a day some stuff you learn in a series of days...
What is classism/or a “classist” belief?
It's a view that makes wages/income/capital the main determiner of social stratum. It can be used in the sense that it is a system that the burgeousie tries to secretly push onto the working class.
Thanks bro! I’m happy I got an answer!
I work as a tech and they havent found someone who can do my job yet. It is complicated, hand-busting work. I am paid little compared to the gang of engineers, middle managers, and executives who are running the company in to the ground. Its maddening.
Out of interest, what do you all think a ceo does?
Make up excuses, ruin other people's work, take credit for that same work when it survives their meddling, bang hookers and hit ketamine all day, and lie constantly.
And be narcissistic
though some of your points encompass that
Don't forget forging connection with another company so they can leap right off when the company they're currently leeching is sinking.
There is no such thing as "unskilled jobs", but there absolutely is such a thing as "unskilled labor". I have seen complete morons trying to sweep a floor, and failing to accomplish anything, despite being trained and coached several times on how to do a simple task. Even then, the shittiest worker I've ever worked with would have been more productive had manglement just fucked off and not existed.
Heavy weapons guy is an unskilled job.
You think you're smarter? Maybe... Maybe...however I'd like to see you outsmart bullets!
Replace unskilled jobs with UBI jobs.
Skilled labor is just compressed unskilled labor, the training is just more unskilled labor unfolded over the expected working life of a worker.
Labor is labor.
No you don't understand. Fancy universities and colleges are superior to practical experience. The difference is...umm...you have to pay a lot of money to go there, so only the right people can do so, which just proves that they deserve the high paying jobs.
It isn't superior, but it takes on a different character. Labor is worth itself as an average of the totality of labor.
Training is unproductive labor that is applied over the expected working lifetime. Practical experience is a form of training, yes, but this is earned over an average as well.
Does that make sense? That's why a seasoned electrician earns more than a journeyman, despite both having training.
Could someone tell me why it wouldnt work if we all got the same pay ? Like we are equally important to each other, non of us could survive without that someone else did something different than what you do for a living.
Wouldnt it be more sustainable if people choose an occupation out of passion than whats most profitable ? There wouldnt be any labour shortages.
This is a bridge too far for most people, but you could have an equal society just by setting a limit to salary differential. If the highest salary was capped at 5 times the lowest, that would be fine. The largest socialist organizations in the world (militaries) have this kind of system.
You could just open an LLC that researches if having lunch everyday kills you and each day report, "Not yet." For this to work you'd have to prove the value of anything you'd want to do for work to the government and what happens if the government is bad at knowing what has potential. You know, hypothetically.
There's a popular myth that, without the motivation of money, nothing would ever get done.
Im in IT just for the cash and being able to work from home, the older I get I understand how much I hate it and is totally unmotivated and do a shitty job. Id rather do something semi-physically work in mechanics or machining that gets more appreciated. But I stay and lurk along.....
Why beat around the bush. Just remove the concept of money altogether
I get what you mean but I cant really see how that would work. There must be some kind of score keeping.