1y ago

Networking Dilemma

Hi there good folk,

The new place i am moving into has the internet come into the house on the other side of where I am planning to have my office + my NAS(which needs ethernet). I much prefer having my stuff connected through ethernet, but not sure what do now, as I cant really run cables across the house. Am also renting the place so cant drill holes in walls etc.. As far as I know, there are two ways for me to get ethernet in my office:

COAX to POE: The place does not have ethernet ports in the walls either, but it does have some wallmounted coax sockets. Is it worth looking into coax to poe adapters for either end of the sockets? Not sure how much of a fan I am of this due to the amount of cables this ends up being.
The other way would be to have a WiFi-extender in my office, but i guess this will sacrafice some more speed than the other solution(?). This way I would have a small switch connected to the extender which will get me some more ports too.

I am planning on buying into the Unifi prodcuts, specifically the Unifi Express device as a router. While expensive, I love the polish and feature set and control it brings. What other Unifi devices should I get into, considering probably wont be able to use PoE?

Lemmy know your thoughts, opinions and the rest - am open for all sorts of solutions!

41 comments

Power-line tends to be quite slow and error prone. If you have existing coax, that is likely the better option. You can get up to 2.5gbit adapters for it: https://til.simonwillison.net/networking/ethernet-over-coaxial-cable
- I think people's experience with PLE will always be subjective. In the old flat we were in, where I needed it. It would drop connection all the time, it was unusable.
  But I've had them run totally fine in other places. Noisy power supplies that aren't even in your place can cause problems. Any kind of impulse noise (bad contacts on an old style thermostat for example) and all kinds of other things can and will interfere with it.
  Wifi is always a compromise too. But, I guess if wiring direct is not an option, the OP needs to choose their compromise.
  
  IMO, powerline is going to depend on a lot of factors including what kind of power you use, which varies from country to country. Where I am in North America, we use 240v split phase, and the powerline adapters are 120v (half phase), so if one unit ends up on one side of the phase, and one ends up on the other side of the phase, you're going to have a bad time, if it links at all.... So knowing which "side" of the split phase your powerline is on becomes critical, which is not something most people know about their power situation. As a result, it's basically a crap shoot whether it will work well or not.
- I spent a year tracking down random afci circuit breaker trips, until I realized it was my powerline Ethernet. Never again.

I have three suggestions for you.
Easy mode: find a triple radio mesh wifi system and get at least two nodes. Generally the LAN Jack on the satellite nodes will bridge to the LAN over WiFi. Just add a switch and use it normally. This will harm your overall speeds when connecting to the NAS from other wired LAN systems that are not on the same switch. I'm not sure if that's important. As long as your internet speed is less than half of your WiFi speed, you shouldn't really notice a difference.
Medium mode: buy MoCA adapters and use coax. Just be sure to get relatively new ones. They're generally all 1G minimum, but usually half duplex, so there's still sacrifice there, but MoCA is generally better than WiFi. The pinch is making sure you stop the MoCA signal from exiting your premise. You don't want to tap into someone else's MoCA network, nor have them tap into yours. There are cable filters that will accomplish this, or you can air gap the coax. I'm not sure how much control you have for the ingress/egress of your coax lines. You can yolo it and just hope for the best, but I can't recommend that.
Hard mode: do ethernet anyways. Usually in rentals, nobody can complain with holes in the walls the size you would get from nails to hand pictures, not much larger than a picture hanging nail, is a cup hook. What I did at my old place, which was a rental, was to buy large cup hooks, and put them every ~18" down the hallway, and load it with ethernet cables. I used adhesive cable runners to go down walls near doors and ran the cables under doors to get from room to room. I got lucky that two adjacent rooms shared a phone jack and I replaced the faceplate with a quad port Keystone faceplate on each side. One Keystone was wired to the phone line to keep existing functionality, the rest were connected to eachother though the wall as ethernet, and I just patched one side to the other (on one side was the core switch for my network). That was my experience, obviously your experience will be different. I used white ethernet to try to blend it in with the ceiling/walls which were off-white. In my situation, I was on DSL and used the phone jack in one of the bedrooms for my internet connection, that bedroom was used as an office and it neighbored my bedroom where I used the jack to jack connections through the wall to feed my TV and other stuff in the bedroom. The ethernet on the cup hooks went from the office to the living room where I put a second access point (first ap was on the office) and TV and other stuff. Inbetween the bedrooms and the living room was the kitchen and the wet wall was basically RF blocking, so I needed an access point on either side, so one in the office near the bedroom and bathroom, and one in the living room, provided plenty of coverage for the ~900sqft apartment we were renting. Most everything was on wired ethernet, and the WiFi was used mainly by laptops and cellphones.
I live by the philosophy of wired when you can, wireless when you have to. Mainly to save WiFi channels and bandwidth for devices that don't have an easy alternative option like mobile phones and portable computers.
I don't think you're in a bad spot OP, and any of these choices should be adequate for your needs, but that will vary depending on what speed internet you have, and how much speed you need for the LAN (to the NAS and between systems).
Good luck.
- Thanks for the write up! 🙌
  I will likely go for either option 1 or 3. I need to reevaluate wether cable is possible or not. If not then I'll go with a mesh. Only "problem" with mesh is that I really wanted to buy into the unifi ecosystem, but their mesh stuff is above my budget. Bit maybe I could just get the unifi express and pair that with another branded mesh system? The place is only 85 square metres, but on two floors. My office is ofcourse furthest away from where the modem comes into the house. Anyway, I will need to evaluate again when I'm there to see if it's possible or not to run cables. Thanks again for detailed response 💛
  
  It definitely sounds like you have some challenges ahead. I personally prefer MoCA over wireless, simply because you can control what devices are able to be a part of the network, and reduce the overall interference from external sources and connections.
  With WiFi, being half duplex, only one station can transmit at a time (with come caveats). Whether that station is a part of your network, or it is simply operating on the same frequency/channel, doesn't matter. So in high density environments, you can kind of get screwed by neighbors.
  MoCA is also half duplex (at least it was the last time I checked) so having a 2.5G MoCA link, to a 1GbE connection (on the ethernet side) should provide similar, or the same experience as pure ethernet (1G full duplex)... The "extra" bandwidth on the MoCA will allow for each station to send and receive at approximately 1Gbps without stepping on eachother so much that you have degraded performance.
  However, it really depends on your situation to say what should or shouldn't be setup. I don't know your bandwidth requirements, so I can't really say. The nice thing about ethernet is that it on switched networks (which is what you'll be using for gigabit), the. Ethernet kind of naturally defaults to the shortest path, unless you're doing something foolish with it (like intentionally messing with STP to push traffic in a particular direction). The issue with that is that ethernet doesn't really scale beyond a few thousand nodes. Not an issue for even a fairly large LAN, but that's the reason we don't use it for internet (wan side) traffic routing. But now I'm off topic.
  Given the naturally shortest-path behavior of ethernet, of you have a switch in your office and you only really use your NAS from your office PC, you'll have a full speed experience. If nothing else needs high-speed access to the NAS, you'll be fine.
  Apart from the NAS or any other LAN resources, the network should be sufficient to fully saturate your internet connection. So the average WiFi speeds should be targeted towards something faster than your internet link (again, half duplex factors in here). I don't know your internet speed so I'm not going to even guess what the numbers should be, but I personally aim for double my internet speed for maximum throughput on my WiFi as much as I can. The closer you can get to doubling your internet speed here, the better. Anything more than that will likely be wasted.
  There's a ton to say about WiFi and performance optimization, but I'll leave it alone unless you ask about it further.
  Good luck.

I would look into doing a proper cable run. You would need to do a little drilling but if you have a plan and make it look nice the landlord is unlikely to have an issue with it. Just have a proper wall covering and port on each side.

I’ve been in similar situations while renting. I ran ethernet cables along skirting boards and around doorframes and hid them inside adhesive cable raceways.

Put the nas and router where the internet comes in at and the just use WiFi for your office and the rest of the house. Thats what 99% of the people do. All the new WiFi routers are really efficient at beam forming and other technologies to get you a decent signal.
At my house, since it is raised up I was able to crawl under and run Ethernet to the living room for the htpc(gaming) computer and it was pretty easy to install a keystone next to a power outlet. Not sure if that is viable in your situation.
But even then I didn’t bother running Ethernet to all the rooms because even streaming 4k video is viable over WiFi. Though I understand it might not work so well if trying to edit on a nas or something similar.
- Normally I wouldn't mind doing this too. But my server is fairly large back box and the Internet comes into the house in a really awkward spot. I might however buy into the new Fractal Mood case, as those seem super slick for leaving servers anywhere in the house.

If it were me and there was no way to have an additional drop installed from the exterior, I would still consider running a single cable through the living space to your desired location, as discreetly as possible.
It's difficult to suggest exactly how to do so without pics or a floorplan, but I would try to match the wall or trim color and keep the cable tucked close to the floor and/or ceiling throughout the run.
Once in place, the cable will quickly disappear into your surroundings and you'll be left with rock solid reliable networking.

What about power line adapters? I’ve got a pair and they just sit there doing their thing, no config needed, just plug in and away you go. So long as you’re on the same electric circuit, they’ll connect over that. Mine are made by TP Link and never had a problem (not sure if Unifi make them, sorry). Best of luck to you!
- Didn't know this was an option even, will defo look into this asap and evaluate wether this fits my use case or not, thanks!
  
  Depending on where you live and what your power circuits look like (not the outlets, the circuits that power them), you may have a great, or very poor experience.
  I'd need to know what country you live in to know more, since power wiring standards vary from country to country. In the USA and Canada (I'm in Canada and the USA is the same), we use split phase and crossing the split phase will severely hinder the ability for powerline to perform.
  It's a viable option, not my favorite option, I'd recommend MoCA (coax) over powerline, but it's ultimately up to you.
  
  I had a set of four for getting ethernet around the few places I rented. There was maybe the odd quality decrease when there was a lot of electrical load, but they worked great otherwise.

I use one of those coax/Ethernet converters in my house. It's a 2-story place and running Ethernet was going to be too daunting for a room.
Overall it works very well (I had bad experiences with using network over electrical power). The only thing that will be a downer is the gigabit coax converters seem to be expensive. Since I just had 1 client in an isolated network, 100mbps was fine for me but would hamper your NAS throughout. You'd also need to buy 2 sets of converters for your use case, so that's potentially not cheap if you're wanting gigabit from end to end.
Some of the newer wireless standards are very quick, but you'd also need to ensure all NICs are compatible and a newer AP wouldn't be free.
Perhaps talk to the landlord about splitting the cost of getting Ethernet professionally run in all rooms. It may be the most cost effective solution, but the drawback is you walk away with nothing. The landlord would be able to advertise Ethernet ready infra, so there is some benefit for them to do it.
- Second this. Landlords don't want their stuff screwed up by inexperienced tenants' diy projects, and they don't want to pay for something they think it's unnecessary. I'd get an estimate for a pro to do it (could be a guy off Craigslist or whatever, just someone who does this for a living) and then just ask the landlord if they'd be alright with you paying to get it done. They'll probably want to know exactly what they're going to do, and they'll likely say yes, especially since you say they already have coax running through the house.

I installed cable in a couple of apartments I rented. I just made it look professional and nothing was ever said about it. In one apartment town home I even had access to the attic and was able to run cable in the walls. I did have to drill through the floor and door headers in some instances, but it can be done.

Tell the ISP you're signing up with that there's no drop for their service, and have them run a new one to the office. Check your local laws about touching their wire or box on the outside of the house before removing it.
Also, it's really easy to patch holes in drywall with a little joint compound and matched paint.
Otherwise, MoCA and powerline ethernet can work. Modern wifi is pretty good too, though consider walls, etc. between points A and B and which frequency you'll be using.
- Landlords are familiar with utility install people and how unpredictable they can be. Even if they get mad, this will put the blame squarely on someone else so it's probably a good option for you. "I dunno why he put it there. You know how utility guys are. It's the only place he'd put my hookup."

You can TRY power line adapters:
TP-Link AV2000 Powerline Adapter https://a.co/d/0fa6e3f3
Their application can be hit or miss, but mine have been perfect. Had them just under 2 years. Able to get full bandwidth and no discernable latency addition

MoCA is a way to send wired Ethernet up to (300mb/s, at least the version i have) over coax. Verizon fios would provide these devices to send internet to set top boxes over existing coax cabling, but you can get a pair of these devices and send Ethernet in on one side, and Ethernet out the other side.
I have noticed however, it adds a bit of latency to the connection, which may be trouble.
- Hello friend.
  You can get 2.5gbps MoCA now. You may want to consider upgrading.
  Nice username btw

If it's cable internet and not fiber/DSL, I'd look at connecting the ISP's coax to the house's coax. Provided all of the house's coax ports are connected to a splitter, you could feed the ISP coax into the nearest port and plug the cable modem into the office port.

You could source a pair of gigabit media converters and a length of fiber on Amazon for about $100. Just use the media converters to extend the Ethernet port from where the Internet hands off in your house over to your office. You can affix the fiber along baseboards and up over door frames with adhesive cleats and zip ties, or those nylon staples on a nail they use to tack down coax cable.
If you're willing to spend a little more on the fiber for a custom color, you can probably even order the fiber in a more neutral color than SMF yellow to blend into the trim better.

Where is this happening? Which country, which laws?
NAS on WiFi works, but it is less fun than NAS on a cable.
Powerline works only with solid copper wire installed in the walls, connecting these rooms with as few interruptions as possible. Never with flexible lines.
P.S. corrected PoE to powerline
- Norway. It works, but I dont have a networking card anyways and much prefer having things wired if possible.
  
  I guess you should simply talk to the landlord about your needs, and try to find an agreeable solution together.

My current home, the landlord doesn’t have a cable and I’m separate from the house. I’ve been using a wifi router to pick up the signal and then I just connect my devices to that router. It works as an access point basically.
I’m using the GL.inet Flint and it’s been solid for several years. It runs openWRT. Just make sure the router has the ability to repeat. A lot of wifi routers are one way only.
- These are great when you’re dependent on a “parent” LAN for internet access but want your own network away from it. Bonus points if you have VPN running transparently on the travel router to keep traffic private from the parent network’s operator.

Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
Fewer Letters More Letters

AP WiFi Access Point
NAS Network-Attached Storage
PoE Power over Ethernet
Unifi Ubiquiti WiFi hardware brand
VPN Virtual Private Network
[Thread #823 for this sub, first seen 22nd Jun 2024, 14:05] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]

Fewer Letters	More Letters
AP	WiFi Access Point
NAS	Network-Attached Storage
PoE	Power over Ethernet
Unifi	Ubiquiti WiFi hardware brand
VPN	Virtual Private Network

41 comments