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THE POLICE PROBLEM @lemmy.world

ByteOnBikes @discuss.online

3w ago

Fuck this ICE mask bullshit

157 comments

Utterly delusional to think any of that would work. At every step you would just get your face beaten in. When the cops come they too will just beat your face in.
Thinking you can castle doctrine a squad of ICE agents is equally delusional. You could probably take a couple out but you'd still die in the end and be risking the lives of anyone that lives with you.
The only solution is well known and already in practice in places like LA: have an active community response force that will show up and intimidate and harass the ICE agents. All of the previous delusions assume you, alone, can stop an ICE with just your privledge.
- No badges, no uniforms, driving unmarked cars and wearing masks? I think any person could successfully argue in court that they thought they were being kidnapped by criminals.
  
  You never get to court, that's the point the previous comment is making.
  As an individual trying to stand up to them you're somewhere between being either completely ineffectual or making the situation worse. Having the law on your side doesn't matter because it's impossible for you to summon the enforcement of it fast enough to help you, assuming they even would.
  A local community response that will mobilize and appear in your neighborhood in seconds is basically the only way to respond quickly with enough force for them to care about.
  
  You're probably right, but you'd have to make it to court. Not everyone does..
  
  If ICE is coming for you, then you're not seeing court. If you're some interfering bystander then maybe you will. But then you're plan to lie to the judge and say you didn't know? The judge will see through you're bullshit immediately.
  Like that could only work if you actually were ignorant and even then you'd have a long up hill legal battle to establish the precedent that its sometimes OK to shoot law enforcement. IANAL but I think thats a liberty the state has never been conceded.
  
  You're still thinking as if due process and legality matters
  
  court
  :(
- There were posters stapled to phone polls in my area with what to do when ice is around. Demand id, demand a warrent etc etc.
  The next day there were news stories of ice not even caring about any of that.
  They do not care about the law. Lock your door and hide. If you're a neighbor tell them no one's home. That's about as much as you can do as an individual.
- Folks also need to be tearing down the local deathcamps, and rescuing the people still alive in them.
- Tbh this is my plan if I see them, but starting with the calling 911 about the masked gunmen abducting my neighbor.
  
  You know the cops watch the news too and will immediately guess what your up to. At best this is just trolling the cops. At worst you're calling back up for ICE.
- It happened at one of the protests. Someone asked one of the officers for their badge number and got their head battered.
- show up and intimidate and harass
  Well, show up and exercise first amendment rights certainly!
  
  Second*
- Sometimes you resist even if you know you will lose. At least it spends their time and exposes them to lawsuits.
  
  If you want to be as annoying as possible out of spite or martyrdom I can respect that. But that's what it'd be.
- If you can't stop them, taking as many out with you as you can is not the worst option.

Ideally while having someone who isn't you record the interaction, so when they drop you to the pavement and your phone 'regrettably' gets smashed to pieces, there's still some external record of what went down.
- Livestreaming the encounter could also potentially work. But yeah, ideally you probably want as many different camera angles and recordings as you can.
  
  You'll probably just get shot
- ACLU blue

They wear the masks so they can’t be identified. They don’t want their kids friends and school friends to know that what they do.
- I don't think they care what their family thinks of them .... I think they care about how angry democratically minded citizens see them as unidentified fascists hiding behind masks
  If what you are doing is legal, legitimate and moral ... then you never have to mask your name or hide your face
  If what you are doing is illegal, immoral and highly dangerous to everyone including you and your family and you know it .. then you are more apt to want to hide your identity and avoid having to deal with the repercussions of what you know is wrong
  
  If what you are doing is legal, legitimate and moral ... then you never have to mask your name or hide your face
  Disregard this, hide your face at protests people

If a person impersonating a cop spouted out some random digits when I asked for their badge and serial number, I doubt I would be able to tell the difference.
- That's what the call is for- you ask the local office if they can confirm that that officer is actually on patrol, exists, etc. Idk how that would work for ICE though; I don't think you can just call up the federal ICE headquarters.
  
  That's not what the post says. It says call 911 if they refuse. It gives no guidance on what to do if they respond.
- Exactly. I had some undercover (or plain clothes I guess?) cops show up at my workplace looking for one of my guys. I asked to see their badge and they showed me a badge but honestly, that's only gonna stop someone who didn't plan far enough ahead. The badge could have been from the dollar store and I would have a hard time refuting....

Dial 911 first, and say there's a masked person with a gun. No need to qualify that shit.
- My thoughts exactly. You think gestapo is gonna wait patiently while you call 911?
- If you don't, you're dead or at least on the ground before you finish that first question.
  
  You don't have to talk to a masked gunman or engage with them in any way to call 911.
  If you see masked people with guns, call 911. If they're authorized to be there, there's no harm in calling it in.

This always makes me think, if you resist an "ice agent" because they have not identified themselves, your not liable right? Like if you go infront of a court wouldn't you have a good case to say, "they didn't identify themselves, I thought I might be assaulted or kidnapped by someone"
- There is a reason why they suspend due process.
  You are being kidnapped.
- Your first mistake was assuming you would be allowed to see a court.
- Except you won't go to a court. You'll go to a camp.
  
  Herein lies the problem.
  There is no due process.
  There is no law except what they choose to enforce.
  You will not see a judge.
  You will never be convicted by a jury of your peers.
  You will just die, or be sent off to a place where you will likely wish that you were dead.
  This is not law enforcement. This is not legal. They will not follow their own laws, why would you? If they come for you, fight like your life depends on it, because it probably does.

No. When an armed, masked man with no ID assaults you, you fucking shoot him dead, or do your damnedest.
- or do your damnedest.
  RIP
  
  ... So anyway, I started blasting ...

Don't even engage; just call 911 immediately. If they're not proactively proving their legitimacy they're already guilty.

Skip straight to step 3. Just call 911. These guys aren't fucking around, and neither should you.
- Exactly what I thought. If their intent is to kill you they aren't going to mess around while you ask several times threatening to call the police.
  
  If their intent is to kill you, phoning 911 is a waste of time. You are now alone. Fight for your life. Take down as many nazis as you can.

Next protest literally everyone should dress up in the same outfit the ICE officers dress in. Who would they arrest?
- I was in autopilot reading this like don't dress like cops then I remembered the cops aren't dressing like cops. (I'm very sleepy.)
- Impersonation a federal agent is a felony.
  
  I think it's just wearing clothes not a uniform though and not stating you're an agent, so I don't think it's impersonation.
  However I think it's dangerous to do this. We're better off when we can identify the enemy.
  
  Don't put ICE plastered on the front just dress up in black with a helmet and face mask and vest. When there's 1000 it's close enough
  
  Should remind them of that.
  
  And yet there are no laws against expersonating.
  
  Then the fucking idiots in ice refusing to identify should all be locked up for impersonation of a federal agent.

God damn, people. Didn't masked ICE agents snatch the New York City Comptroller and the migrant who had showed up for a hearing from the center of a heavily policed immigration court? Did anyone on the NYPD try and stop them?

You can see a local police officer in the fucking headline image. He's holding back the press and letting masked ICE agents do as thou wilt. If the local PD won't stick their necks out for a municipal senior official, what are the odds they're going to do it for you?
This, after a sitting US Senator was arrested during a press conference? Who are you fooling?
- Still recommending it because if the pigs show up and kill the pigs everyone wins.
  
  That's not how it works. If local cops show up, they only assist ICE. The NYPD in this photo were Brad Lander's (Elected official being kidnapped) entourage. When ICE turned on him, they held the press back from ICE and then the senior member of their group cooperated with ICE and left the building alongside them and Lander. No asking for ID, no asking for a warrant from them, zero resistance, only assistance.
  If the Dems want to actually exercise their right to resist a kidnapping they should be showing up with private security, or exercising their own 2A rights (Something that pretty much only politicians and friends of cops can do in NYC because NYPD gets constitutionally-questionable veto power on gun permits). But I'm guessing that is exactly what the Trump regime is waiting for. They will send in the national guard once that happens.

Except HSI and ICE don’t have badge numbers, so you’d say, “What’s your name and call sign?” The call sign is most commonly a letter followed by 3 digits. ex: A-123
https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Customs_and_Border_Protection

Great idea.
Hopefully they're not already five deep on you and have you handcuffed and took your phone.
- Hopefully they’re not already five deep on you
  Its fine, I'm into that. Or I can pretend to be.

Yes still our enemies of oppression and facasium.

If one of the possible answers to your question is "yes, I am indeed armed, and committing a felony by impersonating a law enforcement officer", you should reconsider your most recent life choices. In particular, asking them that question.
Observe from a safe distance, and call 911. What on earth do you hope to gain by going up to them for a chat?
excuuuuuuuse me. Are you actually taking people hostages? Or is this some kind of publicity stunt? Hellooo?! Are you really shooting at me? That's just, like, so rude.
- These sort of tactics might work if you're with a large group in a public space, if you're one person then it might not be the best idea. Honestly a lot of this stuff is highly context dependent.
- so rude
  Well, it is.
- I assumed this is what you might consider once confronted not like put “ICE confrontation time” on your calendar

Saw this today maybe someone you know can be added to the list https://icelist.info/

Before you finish your first word, you'll be facedown on the floor by 4 ICE officers telling you not to "resist"
- I found a "Dont Resist" tshirt for you:
  https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Resist-Shirt/dp/B07NCV8C49
  Also this one: "Give Up. Lie down in the woods and let the moss reclaim you"
  https://obviousplant.com/products/give-up-t-shirt

It would be incredible if we could get through a lawsuit to news stations anytime they make bad assumptions in articles. They continually write "Federal agents detained ..." when they should be writing "A team of unidentified individuals in masks and armor detained ..."
Just as they are always meant to write "The suspect" not "The criminal". Nothing must be assumed in reporting (exceptions allowed if they've contacted ICE headquarters and received a confirmation of them)
- The media is the 4th branch, they won’t report on these things until they have to. And even then, they’ll find a way to delegitimize.
- Just as they are always meant to write "The suspect" not "The criminal".
  For now, anyway. Due process and the presumption of innocence are still holding up, but the fascists are working hard on that one.
  
  Due process and the presumption of innocence are still holding up
  What? No friend, that's a very privileged viewpoint that doesn't hold true for many people and never has.
  
  You have not been reading the news recently.

No ID = No authority.
- Tell that to their handcuffs and guns.
  
  I guess I should have said "No legitimacy".

The real answer is anytime you see ICE acting extra-judicially call the police to report masked armed men trespassing and assaulting people.
Be vague. You don’t know who they are, they look suspicious, they look like they are about to commit a crime, this could be an active shooter/crime in progress , pointed a gun at you…. You know facts.

Yeah. Cops will help the situation..
- Exactly. If you have a problem and you call the cops, you now have two problems.
  
  Anyone have the phone number for the mob or local gangs? Maybe they can finally bring some small semblance of justice to these situations.

Like they,are going to give you the time to do this shit.

i was under the impression that the guy was just wearing basic police uniform stuff like the blue outfit and maybe a utility belt, but this freak had bizarre tactical crap and a LATEX SKIN MASK that completely covered his head

Serial number?
- That's to trace them back to the factory
  
  In a hilarious mishap, they think everyone is John Conners.

You ever notice how they stand with their hands covering their badges and name plates?
- domestic terrorism
- If they don't adjust the things attached to their vests to hang over their identifying patches and badges. I have seen a bunch where they just have something that hangs over them.

How does this post even make sense in this community? literally written in the sidebar:
The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.
- This is a SLIGHTLY different case than what the sidebar mentions.
  Yes, asking asking the police to investigate themselves is a non-starter.
  This post is advocating turning the state/local police against ICE, a federal agency.
  I agree, it's unlikely to make a difference. But if you call 9-1-1 and report "Masked men in an unmarked car just kidnapped someone", it's way different from asking internal affairs to investigate another cop.
  
  This post is advocating turning the state/local police against ICE, a federal agency.
  More than 600 local police agencies are partnering with ICE: See if yours is one of them
  
  So, just generating reports?
  
  Thank you for responding. While I don't agree I can see your reasoning and appreciate your approach of communicating it in a transparent way.
- When an employee is investigated by hr that’s the company investigating itself and people get fired that way.
- The point is calling their bluff

If you think a masked unidentified person will answer your question…..
- If you think a masked unidentified person will answer your question……
  More like from a legal standpoint, you'd have a leg to stand on, you might also spook a fake agent enough to move on to a more willing target.
  Assuming they're real agents, I think the real issue is the cop's response:
  They likely would not show up in a timely fashion
  They likely would not show up at all
  If they did show up in a timely fashion, the odds that they would side with you are slim
- Thats when you remind them that this is America (Pew Pew)
  Especially if you live in a castle law state.

Teethe > jugular arteries, for anyone who needs that pointed out, in case you find yourself in arms length of one of these terrorists.
- That sure sounds like something a shark would do
  
  Why are you bringing us sharks into the conversation? That’s so weird. You’re so weird.
  
  You could just rotate the shark.
- While perfect advice for a shark, zero percent of the humans who read this will actually do that without being actively George Floyd'ed
  
  Just food for thought.

And if they won't show proof of being police, bite the face. It really makes them think twice.

ACAB

I've been wondering how does stand your ground work with a force of people not identifiable with guns. There is no way to know if someone is an ICE agent or an impersonator. It doesn't help the police literally just feel for one themselves with the recent murder.
- Its quite simple
  undefined
  
  you = 2 if color == "white" else 0 masked_gunman = 100 if job == "cop" else 1 if you > masked_gunman : print("The justice system works!") else: print("Life without parole")
  
  you = 2 if color == "white" else 0 masked_gunman = 100 if job == "cop" else 1
  if you > masked_gunman : print("The justice system works!") else: print("Life without parole")
  This is a top tier reply.
  
  So you're saying if 51 white people shoot 1 cop each the justice system will work?
- This question depends enormously on what state you are in, and a bunch of other factors that im simply not going to discuss here because i am not a lawyer and I dont want this taken as legal advice.
  Now, in Indiana (the state I live in) you are only really allowed to respond with a proportional response. But the nice thing about "a proportional response" is that it doesn't mean you can only use a gun if they have a gun. If you, or someone else, is in immediate danger you are allowed to use your firearm. This would also apply in something like a robbery (even if they aren't armed), or in a SA case. I would imagine "I/someone else was being kidnapped" could be a good defense. And in Indiana cops are not excluded from stand your ground or castle laws.
  Now another thing that I think people get wrong is that castle and stand your ground laws are usually not actual laws, but more of a framework built around case precedent. So if you use your gun, you will still be arrested and have to go through a trial which I personally think is a good thing. It's kinda like fair use, it's a widely accepted defense and there's a bunch of precedent about it, but there is no actual laws saying what is an isn't fair use.
  But again, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. And tbh, I'm a little more pro-gun than a lot of leftists and IMO blasting and going to jail is significantly better than what could happen if you get kidnapped.

Finally a smart idea. Reddit is just full of dumbfucks. Lol

157 comments