There's a problem with this argument.
Confederate states actually controlled the federal government prior to their succession, and strongly opposed states' rights to ignore federal laws like the Escaped Slaves act. Wisconsin and Vermont had judges and legislators who declared any individual who reached their borders to be free.
Abraham Lincoln had declared opposition to slavery, but said that he would not impose federal law on the states, and had not even threatened to free slaves before the war began.
So while the Civil War did have a lot to do with states' rights, the Confederates were opposed to them and the Union supported them. This led to the secession, which sort of flipped the script, because then it was Confederate states demanding the right to leave the Union, and the Union saying "no" to that particular demand. It had very little to do with telling Southern States that they could not keep slaves, although there is plenty of reason to expect that it would have gone in that direction without the Civil War. Abolitionists were gaining ground, and Lincoln was morally opposed to it, so it the Confederate states had a reasonable expectation that they would eventually be forced to end slavery, but it hadn't happened before the start of the war.
To be sure, the Confederacy was a traitorous band of anti-American bigots seeking to create a tyrannical ethnostate of christofascists (fuck, why does that sound familiar?). However, in this case, the answer to Velma's question in this case is not "keep slaves" but is instead "secede."
42the secession papers of many states announcing the superiority of the white man and their god given right to own slaves flies in the face of this pretty hard.
yeah, you're right that the confederacy counter-intuitively wanted federal control over state control but that was specifically about forcing the north to return escaped slaves. thinking it was about a state's right to seceed is circular af, too. why did they want to seceed in the first place? the abolition movement and the refusal of the federal government to help the south enforce slavery.
66The secession papers specifically cite the failure of the federal government to enforce the federal law, which is exactly what I said. You've restated what I said in your second paragraph, which flies in the face of your first paragraph.
Secession was not he reason for secession. Secession was the only issue in which the Confederate states advanced states' rights as an argument supporting their position.
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And why did they want to secede ?
31I answered that question. They wanted to secede because the federal government wasn't enforcing federal law, specifically the escaped slaves act. States were using their own courts and their own legislatures to free slaves, and the federal government was not willing to override states' rights. The states' right to own slaves was not in jeopardy at that time. The only states' right that the secessionists wanted to avail themselves of was the right to secede, which they didn't actually have.
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Just because something is indirect does not mean it isn't ultimately the overarching reason.
Yes, the direct reason was secession, but the reason for secession was slavery.
21There was nothing indirect about it. The direct reason was slavery. Slavery was federal law. It was not state law in every state, and the Confederate states did not want to stay in the union if the federal government wasn't going to enforce slavery in states that had abolitionist state laws. The federal government was not trying to tell Conferates that they had to free their slaves, so the Confederates were not on the states' rights side of the slavery issue when they attempted to secede. They opposed states rights to abolish slavery.
When they seceded, they used, in part, the argument that states had the right to secede from the union. They did not, and we fought a big war over it.
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It's usually "They seceded to protect states' rights", and "They seceded to protect states' rights to secede" kind of runs into an issue when you consider that the Confederacy did not regard Confederate states as having the right to secede.
15Yes, but today the people trying to argue the Civil War was about states rights all secretly wish they could own slaves.
9Those people are confused, understandably, because states' rights was the rallying cry of southern bigots during their opposition to the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation. Bigots don't tend to be the most enlightened or thoughtful people, and this is a topic that trips up even intelligent and informed people.
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This is a really interesting thread, thank you. I'll read the secession documents again with this in mind.
8Confederate states actually controlled the federal government prior to their succession, and strongly opposed states’ rights to ignore federal laws like the Escaped Slaves act. Wisconsin and Vermont had judges and legislators who declared any individual who reached their borders to be free.
This is why I think the overturn of Roe v. Wade is dangerous. They're already trying to outlaw women traveling within the state to get an abortion somewhere else, how long until they try arresting them in another state?
6I'm pretty sure arresting on return and arrests for helping people to leave the state are already happening.
It's certainly close enough that there are preemptive reports asserting that it would be federally illegal: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-justice-department-says-constitution-protects-right-travel-abortion-2023-11-09/
The Alabama lawsuits seek to block the state from criminally prosecuting those who facilitate out-of-state travel for an abortion. Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall has said those who aid travel can be charged with conspiracy if the out-of-state abortion would have been illegal in Alabama.
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