That's what people said last election. We always have to push them to be better the next election. Always settle for worse. What a shit electoral system the US has. And the hilarious part is that unless that person you're talking to lives in a swing state their vote probably doesn't matter anyway.

I think that's the biggest crime for a comedian - not being funny. He's just doing the same jokes over and over now, and it's being done by other comedians, too, so it's even more derivative.

Exactly. The app developers were willing to make changes but they didn't give them nearly enough time to do it. They dropped the changes at the last-minute and then lied about what they and the developers said in their private conversations. Then they got mad at the Apollo dev for recording it to cover their ass. It's like getting mad at your partner when you cheated on them lol.

That's not her saying she gave questions to both campaigns. That's her saying she contacted both campaigns for guidance. Even in there she denied giving debate questions, and that senior aide is saying he agreed that she probably didn't give any debate questions, and that her defense about giving both campaigns guidance is true, so the leak is probably mixing those two things up. You can tell because they say she probably didn't even know the debate questions, and he's agreeing. It's admirable of that guy, but with hindsight he was wrong.

It later turned out she lied and admitted she did do that. Your article is from before she admitted it, during the time she was denying it for while.

Also, Happy New Year! I won't be able to resume this debate much because I'll be switching instances in the new year to a bigger one. But I hope you and everyone reading this has a great 2024!

Why does every Israeli argument come down to "we were oppressed and killed en masse so we're allowed to oppress and kill en masse others"? That's not a defense. By your logic, black people in the US should be allowed to kill white people in the South and take everything below the Mason-Dixon.

As far as the Ottoman empire, Jews lived there before it fell in WWI. Including, (GASP), Palestinian Jews, which Lemmy doesn't even seem to realize existed. Or tall about the useless land that they purchased and transformed and THEN it became an issue with pre 48 conflict.

Lemmy does acknowledge this, you just ignore it. It actually doesn't help your argument at all. Jewish, Christians, and Muslim Arabs lived in peace in the area for centuries. That's a huge argument against the necessity of Israel as it's one Jewish ethnostate and a huge argument for a one-state solution, the one I prefer myself.

And if you think Britian betrayed the Palestians instead of COMPLETELY fucked the middle east hand in hand with Russia, France, and the US through incompetence, arrogance, and racism... then you've either not studied the subject or you're being intellectually disingenuous.

Ya, they did both, but that's unrelated. What's your point here? My point was that there's a reason Palestinians were angry at being promised their own state and then Britain and France giving huge portions to what would become Israel. It explains a lot of later actions that Israel doesn't like to give context for, like when they're attacked by surrounding nations (after all, that's where the Palestinian refugees end up running to and affecting). Not sure what your point was.

Pretending there's innocent parties here is an easy way to spot someone who doesn't know what the fuck their talking about or worse is being intentionally dishonest.

There's no completely innocent party. I mean, Hamas sucks. But the power dynamics make things more clear. All the power to change things lies in Israel, who has an actual government, state, military, advanced defense technology, etc and controls everything about the Palestinian territories.

I can easily roll off examples of settlers' crimes and pre Israeli settlers, but I'm aware of plenty of Arab ones too.

I'd bet you money they don't really compare. That'd like saying I can say plenty of times the Native Americans did horrible things to the white settlers to the US, but I can tell you 100% that one side was way worse than the other when you factor in scale of damage, power, and historical context.

If you really want to delve into history and issues arising, why are the Israel's arguably the first people's / first nation. Treated so differently worldwide than all other first nations? Hmm. LOL

Treated differently how? They get special treatment, I suppose, but I have a feeling that's not what you mean. They're condemned as much as other nations. Probably should be condemned more, up there with Russia, but they got the US backing them up. Other than that, they're brought up a lot because 1) people are more anti-colonialosm now than they used to be and 2) most of the English-speaking internet is from the US and it's allies who donate tons of money to Israel, so unlike other places of horror, a lot of the citizens who speak up can actually do something about it, and 3) I actually don't think people speak up enough. People have generally ignored the plight of Palestinians for decades, part of the reason they're so angry lol.

It's not delusions, it's called acknowledging facts. Fact:the last election was decades ago. Fact: Most of the population is under 18. Fact: Most of the population didn't participate in that election. Fact: Hamas at the time was more moderate, or appeared to be, supported a two state solution and other more moderate policies. Fact: Most of the population didn't support Hamas until Israel started doing a genocide. These are all facts. The irony of warning of a slippery slope when you're ignoring all of these to defend an oppressive, genocidal, apartheid regime that's killing tens of thousands more civilians, including children, than Palestine is palpable. You're so stuck in your propaganda bubble you don't even realize it.

Everyone knows the solution. Stop oppressing and blockading the Palestinians. Adopt a one state or two solution, give them autonomy, the ability to control their own land, power, sky, sea, trash, water, imports, etc. Either with their own state, or combine all the land into one, give equal protections to all people in a strong constitution, give representation to everyone, setup reconciliation panels to help the nation move past the crimes done and establish a new start, make treaties, etc. It was done in the UK with the Irish and South Africa. Israel thinks their situation is so special and unique, but it's not. It's the same settler colonial situation as all the others, except with Jewish people, so because they went through the holocaust, I guess they get a pass on genocide.

And genocide is what it is, or they're dumb. Otherwise, what's the plan? They're just making more Hamas recruits by making all these orphans. You think they'll like Israel after 30,000 dead? They're either stupid or just plan on killing or displacing all the orphans, too, which is genocide. That's what I'm saying.

Even before now, it looks like the same process, what they've been doing for decades. It's the same as the natives in the US, which everyone would call a genocide, too, btw. It's the same playbook. First, lots of colonialism and taking of land. Next, say they're savage when they retaliate. Then, killing while moving them over bit by bit into smaller and farther pieces of land. Retaliate with huge violence when they try to fight back to kill off tons more and take more land. And their situation gets more desperate and they fight back more, retaliate harder, and repeat. It's like the Nazis saying that it's the only solution after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising because they too dangerous to govern. No shit, stop oppressing them.

They don't continue to elect them to this day. They were elected one time, on a more moderate platform, and there hasn't been an election since. They actually had less than 50% support before the attack, but getting bombed to shit makes you support the only group that's willing to do something about them and fight back, do I get why they're popularity may have risen since then.

Incidentally, that's why bombing the crap out of civilians doesn't stop terrorist groups. All those offers Israel is making just turns into more terrorists. Either that, or they kill all the Palestinians, which is genocide.

No people would tolerate what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians since the start of their occupation. The rockets are their only means of defense,and even those don't do shit. Look at the numbers of dead from each side in every year. It's not even comparavle. Israel isn't defending themselves, they're perpetrating the humanitarian crisis by their treatment of human beings, and then complaining when those people are pushed to the brink and lash out. Then they use it an excuse to do more genocide: displace people, take their land, and kill more children. The US did the same thing to the Native Americans, it's the same playbook.

Actually the more people study the history of Israel, the worse it looks. When you start diving into the terrorist groups that drove the creation of Israel, that then were forgive for their war crimes, combined with their mainstream right party, and one even became prime minister; or Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians after they helped them fight the Ottoman Empire during the war, or the historical opinions of Jews who survived the holocaust talking about the terrible treatment of Palestinians even back in 1948, etc it doesn't look good.

Do you have a source for that? I can't find one. I found plenty of sources saying she gave the questions to the Clinton campaign in advance, apologized for it, and then resigned. But none of them mention giving them to the Sanders campaign.

A huge deal was made one gay guy was killed for being gay last year. Its doubtful they were killing thousands or people would've similarly noticed.

And LGBTQ rights. But I would say it's true for any theocratic states, except for to its credit Isreal. It just happens to be that most of the ones in today's world are Muslim. The Christian Fascists of the US are trying to turn the US into a theocratic state as well, and when our laws are based on religion, it'll be terrible for LGBTQ, too.

Just because they're not out, doesn't mean they're not gay. Israel has 100% killed more LGBTQ Palestinians recently just from all their bombings.

Genocide+

There probably should be multiple mods. But I don't have the time. I hope someone volunteers!

It used to be, but I doubt I'd even call it a swing state anymore. Democratics need to stop caring what they think. Florida Cubans are like the most conservative people on the planet. Like, leading the Proud Boys level conservative. They're never voting for a Democrat.

100%. Look at all the cities that rolled back progress on changes made to their police departments from the BLM movement as soon as they could.

Thank God they're finally building some chip plants here. The fact that our whole economy depends on some foreign island next to a huge country that has always hustorically threatened to take it back is insane to me. Although I think we should have more manufacturing in the homeland in general. Thanks capitalism, for off shoring manufacturing for the last many decades -_-

Because Trump said what he was going tk do and people didn't like. He didn't even win the majority and had revealed himself tk he racist and sexist, of course people were going to protest him.

Thanks for the perspective! So the people saying the US did it, so Israel can do it too, are even more wrong than I thought!

People are losing their jobs just for asking for a ceasefire, not even for saying anything antisemitic. It's insane. I still feel sorry for that Scream 7 actress.