would it be simpler for people if we said "server" instead of "instance"?
would it be simpler for people if we said "server" instead of "instance"?
or maybe some other terminology would be better? lots of people get confused when you ask them to choose an instance, sometimes I think even the word "proxy", "host", or "hub" is simpler
the specific terms aren't my point, just a discussion to see if we can come up with a better name
I think "server" is basic and simple. I'm using that one.
34I have a slight preference for server but I've been using both terms frequently and interchangeably. Whenever I start talking about this server and that instance, I often end up using the term several times in rapid succession. As all good writers know, widening ones vocabulary in such situations helps give the text a better flow. It's good to have multiple terms for any given concept to avoid excessive repetition when trying to explain things.
4
"Server" has sadly been misappropriated by Discord to mean something like group, and a younger generation grew up on that and would be even more confused by that than "instance" (as seen by countless attempts to explain "server" in a federated chat context).
19For me:
- Instance = MMO bosses. Part of the server, but doing your own thing, seperate from the rest of the server.
- Server = a large number of people that can interact and talk with each other.
But also me:
- Server/Instance = An individual connection point to the whole (Lemmy in this case), with it's own rules/policies, but can interact with the whole unless they become unstable/spammy, at which point they are removed (Lemmy = defederated).
- Lemmy = The IRC network. You can have netsplits (different instances coming and going that effect each other), but they all talk the same language and really for the most part doesn't matter what server your on.
Discord = I do not understand. It's like if you mashed IM and IRC together, but broken, and doing nothing well. Why anyone uses it is perplexing.
1
Hey, everyone! Get in here! We're building a bikeshed!
16
a server can have multiple instances.15And an instance could be hosted on multiple servers.
5I get what you mean but no one can check easily if two instances are on the same physical server. At least no one that requires a simplification in what we call instances. Unless I misunderstood what you meant.
4
The word instance is fine, and makes sense if you think about it for five seconds.
11Asking potential new users to think for 5 seconds is sometimes a tall order lol
7And an excellent filter.
2
Look man, I'm super tech-savvy and I straight-up almost never made it over here from reddit because the explanation of it that someone was giving just sounded shitty and convoluted. Now think about how much effort someone who uses Gmail as a substitute for knowing how email works is willing to put in.
-1I have met many people who refer to themselves as super tech-savvy, it usually means the conversation is going to be a lot of nodding and smiling on my part.
Obviously I don't know you, but your comment gives me that vibe.
Now on topic, why does growth matter? Who cares about the tech illiterate? Big doesn't mean good.
Every site I've been part of has been a better experience when limited to erudite access.
If a person cannot think for five seconds of their time, what value do they bring?
4
My vote goes to server, though with a little explanation as to why everyone calls them instances.
Easier onboarding, but still nudging users to understand how it all works.
Does that make sense? I don't really know how to articulate the idea properly
9I think provider might be a better world. It's less of a technical term, and everyone knows what's the difference between mobile service providers, internet/cable TV providers, and such.
8If you tell me I have to choose a Lemmy provider I'll immediately assume you have to pay for it
8
provider maybe?
8Service provider? "Please select your Lemmy service provider".
4that actually sounds like a good way to call them
2
"Provider" is the best alternative to "instance" I've seen. I'm down with provider.
4I had thought of provider myself, people seem to be happy with having an email provider and it's not that different a concept.
3
Rewording it doesn't really help.
Old adage...People don't want choices, they want what they want.
Every time you ask a question you lose a chunk of your audience. With something like lemmy, they want to look at messages and respond. Let them do that. Encourage them to choose an instance later, when they're equipped to make that choice.
Yes that's a hard problem with federation.. mastodon went for a default instance as a solution. There are likely better ones but that's a problem lots of people are working on.
7you're right about people making choices, but I still think the word choice matters, I've told people about Lemmy before and they always ask what an instance is
2What you describe is catering to the marginal user: https://nothinghuman.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-the-marginal-user
Luckily the Fediverse doesn't have to grow at all costs and can aim for more long term goals.
1
"Instance" seems too jargon-y to me as well, and "proxy" is even worse. "Server" and "host" are probably a little more familiar, but are still technical language.
Confusion doesn't stem from individual words; people need explanations and examples, but, as an alternative to "instance", if you want to extend the "communities" metaphor, then "society" as a cluster of communities is a natural option, particularly since it relates to the widely understood concept of social media. Since most people using the Internet also know what a web "site" is, you could use the sibilant linguistic association to help cement the notion:—
Each society has its own web site, such as:
aussie.zone, where the communities relate to Australia;programming.dev, where the communities discuss software development;- and
lemmy.film, where the communites are about movies.
You can choose which society you want to join, although some will ask you to fill out an application. Most societies have connections to others, meaning that you can discuss things with people who are part of different societies. Often, you'll recognise them by their username saying that they're at (@) another site. Not all societies get along with one another, so which one you join will also affect who you can talk with.
Each society has its own rules it expects you to follow, whether you are a member of that society or just visiting.
This kind of language seems more intuitive to me anyway, although when I've tried describing instances and federation before now, I've likened instances to countries:—
You choose somewhere to live (and you can move later if you want). If there's a cross-border agreement, then you can send messages back and forth between people in each place.
but this has also meant stressing that your instance "country" doesn't have to match where you physically live, so a more general term probably would have been more useful.
6I'm not so sure about changing the terminology, but if we did, I think it should be a word that implies what the situation is: That the instance they pick isn't a walled garden in itself, but just an access point to the wider connected Lemmyverse. I think that was a common confusion point for most of us when we first heard of Lemmy.
So... "access point"? Or "gateway"? Or for a milder change, going from "instance" to "default instance" might get the point across.
5if we wanted to keep the word instance then yea "default instance" isn't bad, or maybe "home instance"
4"Home instance" is the terminology I use.
4Matrix use the term of "homeserver" too
2
Call servers "Lemmy Service Providers" and people might make the connection with what ISPs do.
1High Availability stans are angry about your question.
Basically... both options are ambiguous. Would be best if they used a more unique name. Like a burrow (many lemmings build burrows).
-3I kinda don't hate the idea of coming up with our own unique name like Burrow, feels like something Apple would do lol. But then it wouldn't be a common term across the fediverse, and also I feel like it would require explanation and then you'd have to choose how to explain it anyways, and you'd still have to use a word like server, instance, portal, provider, etc.
2Both sever and instance have multiple meanings when it comes to deploying Lemmy though.
An instance is running Lemmy publicly, but also just running the APU creates an instance of that API. To scale, you'd probably run multiple instances of the web API.
Same applies to server, but worse. You could also call the web API a web server. You could also call a VM a server. You could also call the physical machine a VM is on a server.
When it comes to naming stuff, it's best to find something unambiguous if it's a core defining thing you want to tell people about. Private corps do this to build a "brand", which is still a valuable thing for open projects so that they can gain adoption.
-3