Israel raids Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital, urges Hamas to surrender
Israel raids Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital, urges Hamas to surrender
The Israeli military said it was carrying out a raid on Wednesday against Palestinian Hamas militants in Al Shifa Hospital, the Gaza Strip's biggest hospital, and urged them all to surrender.
Biden said this was a line Israel should not cross.
I look forward to his ignoring this and sending more weapons, and ordering the US military to fly more drones over Gaza.
68Is Hamas not the slightest bit culpable for using a hospital to stage militant operations? I think they are.
Is it not a brazen war crime to use the sick and injured as a human shield? In fact, it is.Hamas militants should be nowhere near any hospital, school, place of worship, or other place where civilians and noncombatants may be gathering. To use places like this as a base of operations is both cowardly and completely against international norms and laws. The IDF would have zero justification for any military operation at Al Shifa Hospital had Hamas not made the horrible decision to use it, and the suffering people within it, as a shield. For context:
The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Optional Protocols of 1977 (the main treaties of International Humanitarian Law – IHL) set a range of minimum standards for the conduct of hostilities. They are based upon the fundamental principle of distinction between civilians and other protected persons, on the one hand, and those who take part in hostilities (combatants for short).
The term “civilian” refers to individuals or objects (e.g., premises) that do not have a direct role in hostilities (See Rule 5 and Rule 9 of the Study on customary international law by the International Committee of the Red Cross – ICRC). An attack against a civilian person or object is therefore generally a violation of IHL and may constitute a war crime. A person or object can however lose its civilian status if it starts making an effective contribution to military action. It would then become a legitimate military objective (and hence a target) (See Rule 10 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC). This determination must however be unequivocal: when in doubt as to whether a school or hospital has become a military objective, there is a presumption that it retains its civilian status.
Even attacks against legitimate military targets must, however, follow two additional principles: 1) the principle of proportionality – whereby an attack that would cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited (See Rule 14 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC) – and 2) the principle of precaution in attack – which states that constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects (See Rule 15 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC).
Hamas are certainly not ignorant of this, and so they must know that by using the Al Shifa Hospital as a strategic location they are deliberately putting a target on it, so why would they do it?
35Hamas 100% wants to provoke IDF killings of Palestinian civilians. This is not a shock, this is how modern guerrilla/terrorist/resistance wars work (pick your adjective).
The Vietnamese resistance under Ho Chi Minh were the most masterful recent practitioners, but the IRA, LTTE, etc also deployed this.
Israel is playing into Hamas's hands and will get about as much benefit (reputationally and politically) from killing Gazans and razing their homes as the US did in Vietnam.
46Is Hamas not the slightest bit culpable for using a hospital to stage militant operations?
Sure, but the difference is that that the IDF is actively murdering with weapons that we are giving them.
Also, if Hamas is subject to the Geneva convention then they are a legitimate state authority. Are you sure you want to take that position? Because it means that literally everything that Israel is doing in Hamas is a war crime.
3
When asked by reporters at the White House what his message to family members of hostages was, he said: "Hang in there, we're coming." [...]
White House spokesman John Kirby told reporters on the presidential plane, Air Force One, that intelligence confirmed the militant Hamas group, which rules Gaza, used tunnels underneath Al-Shifa and other hospitals to conceal military operations and to hold hostages.
I'm not sure how you interpret "we're coming" by Biden regarding hostages that US intelligence says are being held in the hospital currently being raided, but it certainly doesn't seem like Israel is doing this at odds with Biden's intentions.
If anything, Biden's red line of "hospitals must be protected" seems like it might be behind the IDF claim in the original article of:
The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians.
We'll see what the next few hours hold, but Biden's comments just a few hours before and the US intelligence publicly weighing in certainly looks like this is intended to be a hostage rescue operation which the US is at very least aware of if not actively involved in.
17It's absurd to claim that IDF wants "no harm to civilians". They wouldn't be bombing residential neighborhoods on the scale they are if they had that goal.
9
“Over 100 dead bodies” are still inside the hospital decomposing with no way to get them out. This is fucking horrifying to watch. Even IF there is a command center under the hospital this is the wrong way to address this issue, but Israel is too fucking angry and blood thirsty that they don’t even care. They did it today and they’ll do it again tomorrow. The article says “they were given 12 hours to evacuate” but if those instructions are anything like what they’ve been doing the entirety of the month they were vague and probably not even sent out 12 hours prior because nobody is going to find out. Fucking the evil is what this is. Nothing like punishing women and children for someone else’s actions.
44Even IF there is a command center under the hospital this is the wrong way to address this issue
Given the US's comments in the past 12 hours it looks like this is intended to be an attempt at a hostage rescue. We'll see how it plays out, but it's quite unusual that you have both US intelligence publicly agreeing with the claim that hospital is being used not only operationally but for holding hostages, and then just a few hours ago Biden has a message for the hostages' families of "we're coming."
7Its worth reading/watching into past high profile hostage situations. I have a few yellow flag concerns, but The Operations Room youtube channel is really good for this
The reality is: Once you get away from the movies, hostages die. It is about minimizing loss of life, not preventing it. And the US in particular has taken a very strong "we don't negotiate with terrorists... unless they are wihite" since the republicans sabotaged Carter.
So acknowledging that an ally will be doing an assault and that intelligence feels it would accomplish something is pretty normal.
Calling the shot? That is fairly atypical, but there is also no chance of stealth in this situation. Al Shifa is deep in Gaza and Hamas have sentries. This is WHY "we don't negotiate with terrorists" because bum rushing is really the only chance.
At which point, the optics of "We are going to rescue those hostages" in the face of "We are going to lob large bombs at any terrorist we can find, no matter how many babies they duct tape to their chest" is a choice.
8
Relevant bit of information:
“Israeli army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told CNN the hospital and compound were for Hamas "a central hub of their operations, perhaps even the beating heart and maybe even a centre of gravity."
The U.S. said on Tuesday that its own intelligence supported Israel's conclusions.”
38centre of gravity
For those who are confused by what "Centre of gravity" means in this context:
Center of gravity (COG) is a military term that refers to the source of strength, balance, or stability necessary for a military force to maintain operation.
13I guess its true then. US and Isreal never lies...
3Al Jazeera cut the feed to a journalist interviewing a man in the hospital who complained about Hamas using it as a base
3Hospital based Hamas "command centers" are starting to feel like "al Qaeda second in command". Seems like they are magnetically attracted to ends of American ordinance.
2It's not like this hasn't been reported before. It's sort of an open secret.
-1
Yeah... and there were WMDs in Iraq.
1
Even if Hamas has a command center underneath the hospital, it doesn't justify killing civilians inside the hospital.
Edit: clarification of my point
16Nor did they kill civilians inside the hospital.
7While we can't 100% say they don't have a command center underneath the hospital, Israel's evidence so far has been fabricated. The video claims a random calendar is a guard shift list, for example.
Edit: Typo.
2To be fair, the HM has said it's a regular hospital shift calendar but hasn't been able to explain why it starts on 10/7 and is titled with Hamas' name for the attack. And it's kind of hard to think of a valid reason, especially when considering all the other evidence along with it.
17That's even worse
0
Asymmetrical warfare relies on keeping a civilian population between you and your enemy.
1
At this point I think we can safely conclude that Hamas doesn't care if Israel collectively punishes Palestinian civilians any more than Israel cares when Hamas lobs rockets at Israeli civilians - that is, they don't like it when it happens, but it happening will in no way persuade them to stop.
Logically, it's an impasse, the consequence of which will be the eventual extermination of the Palestinians- an outcome that Bibi seems not to be bothered by at all
6This is the best summary I could come up with:
Less than an hour earlier, around 1 a.m. local time (2300 GMT), a Gaza health ministry spokesman said Israel had told officials in the enclave that it would raid the Shifa hospital complex "in the coming minutes."
The fate of Al Shifa has become a focus of international alarm because of worsening conditions in the facility in recent days with global calls for a humanitarian ceasefire after five weeks of an Israeli assault on Gaza.
The military added: "The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians."
Israeli army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told CNN the hospital and compound were for Hamas "a central hub of their operations, perhaps even the beating heart and maybe even a centre of gravity."
Palestinians trapped in the hospital dug a mass grave on Tuesday to bury patients who died and no plan was in place to evacuate babies despite Israel announcing an offer to send portable incubators, Ashraf Al-Qidra, Gaza's health ministry spokesman, said.
International Criminal Court prosecutor Karim Khan said in an Oct. 30 statement on attacks on protected sites such as hospitals that Israel would also "need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and of proportionality".
The original article contains 956 words, the summary contains 225 words. Saved 76%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
5How about every other faction in the world fucks up both of them?
1Perhaps 1 baby step ahead of just blowing the hospital to pieces. But I'm going to watch for if they find even some of which they claimed was there.
0Already located weapons and killed Hamas combatants in firefights inside the hospital grounds.
I suspect the main goal is to forcefully evacuate any remaining able bodied civilians and begin moving patients and medical staff south. Israeli reports already state that incubators were brought in.
10I sure hope it's safe wherever the patients and medical staff are being evacuated...
Israeli troops found weapons and “terror infrastructure” during an ongoing raid within Al-Shifa Hospital in the Gaza Strip, a senior military official said on Wednesday.
He did not spell out what had been found or provide any visual evidence, but said this would be presented later.
Yeah. So we're going to have to take the IDF's word for it on the weapons part.
0
What, do they think the doctors are Hamas or something?
-6theres offices and tunnels under a lot of the hospitals. either people arent paying attention or their purposely ignoring facts
15Tunnels... Built by the IDF in 1983.
That's why the IDF is so convinced that Hamas has tunnels under al-Shifa. The IDF built them.
1I have been paying attention to the IDF propaganda that all get debunked within a day. Are you talking about the elevator shaft in a building 200meter from one hospital?
Hamas had accepted to send an independent journalist to check out the hospital and this was refused by israel. That alone tells you all you need to know
-7
You have many Israeli politicians declaring all of Gaza to be Hamas.
6Correct. And that's not a joke they legit claim doctors and paramedics are hamas.
-1They even edited some Mein Kampf book with Arab letters pasted on the front and called all the children Hamas. Every Palestinian is Hamas twice over.
-4
Israel defines Hamas as the Gazan government. That's why they recently blew up a government building.
-6To date, the Hamas government is only economically bonded with the Ramallah-based Palestinian National Authority, performing the governing over the Gaza Strip independently.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_of_the_Gaza_Strip
5