Kirk was all about debating : steamrolling arguments over his opponents without answering questions or going into details. This strategy impresses naive audiences, in truth it should be rejected
It was bad arguing. There's a reason why he only argued with children and never with any actually serious debate clubs.
We can probably thank decades of shout shows on television, especially cable, in which "debates" took place that were not really actual debates.
Same with the way our "debates" are run when it comes to politicians running for office.
This. He was terrible at arguing. You are describing a terrible orator with no skill to analyze it present ideas.
But we took humanities out of school curriculum long ago, so most can't tell.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed is king.
never with any actually serious debate clubs
In my experience, many debate clubs have at least a few members who are wankers like Kirk.
For example, Ted Cruz was a debate whiz kid in college. But outside that artificial, controlled environment, he still resorts to bullying and flooding the zone with bullshit. That's because propaganda is a different game than debate, and debate skills have limited relevance to political discussions.
I hate that most people seem to be unaware of the Gish Gallop.
Ben Shapiro does the same thing, as did "Dr" Dino (an evolution denier).
That was a fun read
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
I was in middle school when Adam Sandler's Billy madison came out. The year following, we had debate class.
Anything remotely approximating a gish-gallop was immediately responded to with the ben stein quote
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Im disappointed this did not just become the standard shut down.
the ben stein quote
It was Jim Downey, but Ben Stein probably would've worked just fine in that role as well. Too bad Stein's an anti-abortion creationist weirdo though.
That's awesome. I've heard that clip played for so many things over the years, and honestly, I wish public political "debates" would push a buzzer, cut the mic of the offender and play that clip. Being able to spot and name a Gish Gallop should be in every American's toolbox and maybe a humorous way to teach it would be that clip. :)
I've never been in debate class or on a debate team, but I'm well aware that what is often called a "debate" isn't anything like what a debate should be. Most of it seems to be about who is able to craft and get in a well-scripted zinger, but one that doesn't come off like it's well-scripted.
Like Ronnie Raygun's "there you go again". I mean, that's the classic case of this kind of thing, and even today, conservatives that remember that think it's a real counterpoint. When it just sounds like something barely evolved past the playground's "I know what you are, but what am I?"
And people, even with the rise of the Internet, are still able to get away with the Gish Gallop and have people think the abuser is really smart and a master debater.
Fucking Aquaman?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLqXkYrdmjY&t=191s
It's sad how stupid your message can be and still amass an army of idiots to line up behind you.
LOL, I forgot about that stupid argument by climate denialists about just being able to sell your house and move when the tides rise and claim your property....
But Aquaman is the perfect response!
TIL
Like I’ve seen it in action and have had to counter it but never knew there was a formal name for it.
Cant wait for his next debate
If y’all aren’t familiar yet, the ‘Alt-right Playbook’ videos on Youtube explain all this really well and explain what we have to continue to deal with
I typically avoid videos because I vastly prefer reading, but I make an exception for those. I just watch them at double speed.
The way to deal with it is to not play by their rules. Fascists don't care about winning rational arguments, they just want to get you to waste your time and energy trying.
Drive them out of power, that's the only language they understand.
And this is why one of the correct answers is I do not care.
Try this on tankies. Or Hassan habibis. They will just continue with bullshit and insults.
Never a dialogue. It is a flood of hate.
There are more „episodes“ from this event on YouTube. They are all pretty great. Kirk seems to have problems debating with people who actually know their stuff and don’t let themselves be tricked.
Him and a bunch of other dipshits that hold these "debates" would have failed high school debate classes or an actual judged competition.
Yeah since his death I watched a couple of videos and he is was so robotic and insincere. Like he would just cut off his opponent if he detected a keyword that relates to some lukewarm rebuttal (that anyone with a passing familiarity with the topic would see through) and use it as a rhetorical trap, to stop having a thinking debate and pivot to simply spewing talking points.
Smelling the feculent turn, the crowd would then cheer and whoop him on as he would pile on more and more bullshit over the original dishonest dump.
Then his Move: he would ask a question based on this insincere tower of turds. He would repeat it, it's a simple question, right? Just answer the question.
Obviously the original point is buried under several layers of shit by this point, so it's hard to tell what the debate was even about...
I think that's what honest people failed to realise when debating Kirk. It wasn't about anything other than winning the debate.
Proof of how bad of a "debater" he was.
As someone who categorically avoids watching far right bad faith grifters, I missed the original debate. This young woman is super smart and articulate. Still some room to grow, but I've watched a few things with her now.
That said, I wish we lived in a world where it was considered more worthwhile to do something more impactful with her mind than engage with these grifters for clicks while putting herself at risk given their audiences and her physical appearance and views.
Never Play Defense is the alt right playbook
I didn't know who kirk was and this disheveled looking British kid was my introduction to him. What a lad!! Multiple mic drop moments
Consider it rejected.
With all of the game/competition shows out there they should have a "Debate Club" or "Celebrity Debate Club" which could possibly pass down critical thinking to the viewer.
Grading on a curve, sadly he was much better than a lot of the other right wing personalities.
He at least let them have a mic even in his own forum, which is more than you can say for most right wingers.
Spreading false, bigoted and genocidal propagonda is not debating. That's called selling out your humanity and sucking satan's dick for money
Btw people need to stop talking about charlie kirk, or else we will keep reminding everyone of how evil and hateful he was every time they mention him.
Let him rest in piss or we will keep shitting on him
Guy never won a single argument as a result of not answering questions in kind.
Classic fascist playbook archetype. The man of action that appeals to tradiction, rejects modernity and fosters fear from those that are different.
An asshole who picked fights all the time finally gets one.
Jubilee: 1 Charlie Kirk vs 1 Discord Lunatic: Who would win?
Steamrolling an argument is honestly a legit tactic used in arguing sometimes. A shity and arrogant one though maybe.
If you are in debate club and the goal is "win debate", fine tactic.
If you are doing basically anything else?
Imthe fact that any kind of offical debate can be “won” by shouting over people is in itself a sign that the whole affair is worthless.
You mean like how everyone on Lemmy does it? Questions with questions
What?
Why do you ask?
Few on Lemmy are truly that bad... Or perhaps I blocked the worst offenders.
50% are, especially around election seasons.
Ironic that your comment is a perfect example of what you're complaining about.
That was the point
He was not a debater, he was a propagandist.
CK was a pussy who got his ass whipped every time he left his faschist echo chamber and debated someone with more than two brain cells
As someone not from the US, do you have examples?
He was a content farmer. And he worked hard for that content because most average, random college kids absolutely destroyed him.