1w ago

RPG devs stopped making games like Baldur's Gate 'because retailers told us no one wanted to buy them', says New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity director Josh Sawyer

www.pcgamer.com

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Agent Karyo @lemmy.world

1w ago

RPG devs stopped making games like Baldur's Gate 'because retailers told us no one wanted to buy them', says New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity director Josh Sawyer

www.pcgamer.com /games/baldurs-gate/rpg-devs-stopped-making-games-like-baldurs-gate-because-retailers-told-us-no-one-wanted-to-buy-them-says-new-vegas-and-pillars-of-eternity-director-josh-sawyer/

44 comments

Weird that you don’t listen to your fans and customers
The problem back then was saturation from other competitors who were also cheaper. Noawadays word of mouth through social networks is much more effective.
Imagine listening to retailers over customers.
- At the time, retailers were the customers. Before online storefronts took off, there was no way to sell one copy to Alice, one copy to Bob… you had to sell 50,000 copies to Best Buy with a promise to buy them back in a year if they don’t sell out. If they tell you up front, “we won’t buy that”, what are you gonna do?
It’s anecdotal, but a lot of my friends got bg3 simply because everyone said it was such an amazing, well made game. Most of them never finished a run and said it’s good, but not for them. I actually think it’s not impossible that the genre really isn’t that popular and the game performed so well because most AAA games aren’t made with that level of passion and creativity anymore.
- They bought it though, didn't they?
  
  Yeah. Not because they were dying for a new crpg, but because they heard it was the highest quality game to come out in years. I don’t think most of them would buy a hypothetical BG4 and a few have already said they wouldn’t.
- Played through it with my partner, 10/10 great couples activity.
  It's a great story rich game solo, but the multiplayer is where it really shines when you want that sweet dopamine.
  
  I tried to play it with someone I was dating. She spent like an hour in the character creation menu. Had a lot of fun making her ranger look interesting. But as soon as we got to the actual gameplay, she checked out. I think we got to the druids and she was done.
  Turn based I think is kind of double edged. There's a lot of waiting, that's bad. But you also don't get overwhelmed when you're trying to figure out how to move the camera or whatever.
  DND 5e is a shallow system that you have to go out of your way to make a weak character. That helps. But it also makes it kind of boring for people looking for more depth.
- I felt the same way about bg3. It's an awesome game and my wife loves it, but it's not for me.
- I tried it and I'm not sure if I like it. It seems like the devs expect you to go nova and then rest after every second fight. I've put it down for now, and I'll try again when I have lots of spare time and nothing better to play
  
  That's DND 5e for you.
  The designers originally wanted people to do like 5 fights per rest, but players rightfully said that kind of sucks, and they want to use their cool powers. DND designers keep trying to make this work. It's especially bad in video games where players hate timed quests.
  If they had done something like dark souls "get from here to there on one rest" it might have worked better, but that's a much harder game.
  
  Yeah as the other user said, it's the D&D backbone... I feel like that is the main thing that has prevented me from truly loving the game (and getting past Act 1). I kind of wish they wouldn't have stuck so strictly to the D&D ruleset.
  Maybe try Divinity: Original Sin 2? I'm pretty sure the combat in that one is not D&D based.
stop listening to retailers and listen to consumers... fuksakes...
- The problem is, there's no real good way to "listen to consumers" other than to ask retailers what is actually selling.
  Online chatter is notoriously unreliable, not just in games, but in a lot of sectors. Car enthusiasts go on and on about what nostalgic car they want, but when auto manufacturers try to sell some version of that, there's a million excuses why they bought Generic SUV #472B instead. Music artists have millions of followers on Twitter and Instagram, but can't sell albums and have to cancel tours due to lack of ticket sales.
  Also, at one time, it might actually be true that very few people wanted that style of game. Trends and preferences are constantly changing.
  
  In the beginning of PC games it was the nerds buying the computers and games so 90% of the customers were nerds and they dictated what sold. For example, many different takes on D&D. Now it's such a mixed bag of what is considered a "gamer" so they have to make a variety.
- Keep in mind, the time period he's talking about is the early '00s, before online distribution got big. Back then if GameStop (et al.) didn't believe your product would sell, they wouldn't stock it, and then nobody would be able to buy it.
I think it comes down to cognitive effort, and dopamine release. Some people like to spend their time indulging in lore that would fill up several books, others like seeing explosions on their screens every minute or so. More power to both parties, we have choice nowadays anyways.
I used to love theses long rpgs, but nowadays I like grinding some boars and ripping off their snouts for whatever pointless quest in wow. But I did love playing the original fallout 1 and 2, diving deep into its mechanics. Really loved spending an absurd time into the
Its funny, I did buy pillar of eternity a while ago, and got so overwhelmed by the prospect of having a seemingly multi day game that I just turned it off, pretty convinced that it would monopolise my time if I gave it a fair shot, something that would have shocked me as a kid (think of the dollar to time ratio!!!)
Even if I don’t have time to play them, I still find myself buying them.
Not sure how Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire sold, but i would love a new game in this series. I guess sadly not good enough to warrant a sequel :(
At least for now Obsidian announced an update which will introduce turn based mode to the first game, coming later this year: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/134573-patch-138087535-is-live/
- I mean... Avowed exists. Not quite the same genre but it does lean on and expand lore of the world a bit more.
- Deadfire felt... just kinda bland and mediocre to me. In fairness I never played PoE 1 so maybe I wasn't fully invested in the world, but I kinda just got bored sometime around the halfway point of Deadfire and never finished it.
  
  It can feel quite long, yeah. But i especially liked the non-standard theme for a CRPG and the stories.
  
  I absolutely loved deadfire. I loved, loved, loved iz
  
  First one was a blast, especially with the whole fortress thing. Second one was good, but felt diluted and with "too much woke" shoved down your throat... Nothing against the themes per se, but not constantly in your face.
That's easy to say now, but BG3 wasn't getting much attention during it's early access and other CRPGs like the Pathfinder games weren't that popular either. BG3 has been a phenomenon for a multitude of reasons, so saying developers stopped making games like BG3 isn't too precise either. The only game that gets close to BG3 in both features and praise is Divinity: Original Sin 2, which was also made by Larian.
- They're talking about the original BG with the Infinity Engine. BG3 is the proof retailers had it wrong.
Wasn’t Baldur’s Gate 3 a massive success? 15 million copies, well over half a billion in gross revenue. Kingdom Come:Deliverance II, Clair Obsure, and Elden Ring also come to mind. Heck, even the VR TTRPG Demeo was a success, all in the last 5 years. I don’t understand.
- This article is about the big gap in similar games that occurred after the release of Icewind Dale 2 in 2002. And as the article says, it has nothing to do with their popularity among gamers, it was due to retailers throwing their weight around. There weren't as many good options for direct-to-consumer sales at that time, so you had to sell the game to retailers before you could sell it to customers.
I remember hearing about Neverwinter Nights a mere two days before release. Didn't have time to pre-order it and went to EB at my local mall to get it the day it came out and I was worried it would be sold out. Get there and there's just a huge pyramid of copies of the game right at the entrance.
People only didn't buy them back in the day because most people didn't have a PC. If they were available on a console at the time, I'm sure they would have sold a lot more.

44 comments