John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett are unsure if they should crown themselves king and queen
John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett are unsure if they should crown themselves king and queen
Inside the Supreme Court argument asking if the justices should crown themselves kings and queens.
Four justices appeared absolutely determined, on Wednesday, to overrule one of the most consequential Supreme Court decisions in the Court’s entire history.
Chevron v. National Resources Defense Council (1984) is arguably as important to the development of federal administrative law — an often technical area of the law, but one that touches on literally every single aspect of American life — as Brown v. Board of Education (1954) was important to the development of the law of racial equality. Chevron is a foundational decision, which places strict limits on unelected federal judges’ ability to make policy decisions for the entire nation.
As Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson said during Wednesday’s arguments, Chevron forces judges to grapple with a very basic question: “When does the court decide that this is not my call?”
And yet, four members of the Supreme Court — Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch, and Brett Kavanaugh — spent much of Wednesday’s arguments in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo and Relentless v. Department of Commerce speaking of Chevron with the same contempt most judges reserve for cases like Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), the pro-segregation decision rejected by Brown.
The open question is whether the Court’s four most strident opponents of this foundational ruling can find a fifth vote.
None of the Court’s three Democratic appointees were open to the massive transfer of power to federal judges contemplated by the plaintiffs in these two cases. That leaves Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Amy Coney Barrett as the two votes that remain uncertain. To prevail — and to keep Chevron alive — the Justice Department needed its arguments to persuade both Roberts and Barrett to stay their hands.
I hope Cleveland is ready, because the Cuyahoga River is going to start catching fire again.
74Removing Chevron is pro democracy if the congress and senate fairly represent the people and are willing to do the extra work.
Checks notes.
Uh oh…..
66Putting more decisions in the hands of elected officials is not more democratic. They're too slow and there aren't enough of them to make all the necessary decisions. We can't just have more elected officials because most voters can't be bothered to learn about candidates for the positions that already exist.
2
so the senate is fucked with regard to representation and now the supreme court is absolutely fucked with regards to representation.
who is spose to represent me again?
i still get my 1-2 votes to solve this mess? oh right, that doesnt work that away.
yay democracy.
42who is spose to represent me again?
If you have at least $100M, all 3 branches of government will go to bat for you.
21I've been thinking about this for a while. We really are at a point where taxation without representation should be examined. There's always the suggestion of a general strike to force them to function, but I think the easier and more destructive method would be to not pay taxes en masse. It would take organization to get the whole country to do it but there's already a set date and way to disrupt the system that involves you doing nothing. Simply don't file. What happens if nobody files their taxes? What happens if the system grinds to a halt because they chose to collect the most money from the lower tax brackets and let the big corpos run free? On the flip side what happens if everybody doesn't file taxes and the system grinds on anyway? Then what's the point of taxes? Wouldn't that really expose the lack of representation?
6That's why you vote every time, not just 1-2 times.
Civic duty. Betterment for mankind. Not watching your friends get murdered. Any reason is a good one as long as more fascist Republicans or enablers aren't elected.
5i perform every civic vote im allowed. the 1-2 was for the national bullshit.
my point stands
8
Comedy 2nd ammendment reversal of fortune.
1Hey, Oregon’s representatives are kicking ass and taking names. I definitely got my vote’s worth with them.
1
So, what exactly does the executive branch do anymore, if they overrule this?
Sounds like government employees couldn’t so much as wipe their ass unless Simon Says.
41Plenty of conservatives want this. Or are inextricably convinced that they think they want this, as fine a distinction as that is.
33It would be hilarious if this was overturned, Biden was elected and he filled the nation with progressive justices. It'd be terrible, but it's similar to Trump saying the president can't commit crimes while he isn't president.
12It would be hilarious if this was overturned, Biden was elected and he filled the nation with progressive justices.
...who then use their newfound power to close a crapload of loopholes, then re-write chevron in a way that it can't be taken down so easily again so it becomes much harder to create more loopholes or abolish good laws when people with bad intentions have power.
That'd be the best outcome of it getting overturned in my mind, anyway.
7
Focus on the power, or focus on the people? What would Jesus do?
13The Daily had a great podcast on this. Overturning Chevron shouldn't be on the table, but due to mismanagement of one agency and way over reaching because they were out of money and wanted to expand other programs is the real cause behind this. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the batch. William Bright, one of the men in the lawsuit, ended up having a regulation enforced differently on him that forced him to pay outrageous fees to take an inspector on his fishing boat that he agrees is important oversight, but never had to pay for previously. He filed a complaint and the Koch brothers jumped on this case to fund attorneys to destroy Chevron deference.
Whatever idiot in the National Marine Fisheries Service decided to start charging for this program that's required and has never been charged to the individuals being inspected previously needs to be crucified for this. Killing Chevron deference will have so many far reaching consequences that have been providing safety regulations for the past 40 years are going to go away. It's now going to be up to Congress, who are nowhere near experts on any of these operations or industries, to come up with specific laws that have to be enforced. These idiots don't do their job already, and the expectation that they're suddenly going to do it well is insane.
6This is the best summary I could come up with:
As Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson said during Wednesday’s arguments, Chevron forces judges to grapple with a very basic question: “When does the court decide that this is not my call?”
And yet, four members of the Supreme Court — Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch, and Brett Kavanaugh — spent much of Wednesday’s arguments in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo and Relentless v. Department of Commerce speaking of Chevron with the same contempt most judges reserve for cases like Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), the pro-segregation decision rejected by Brown.
Both companies have an army of lobbyists, engineers, and scientists, who all argue that their employer’s invention is the “best system of emission reduction” and that the federal government should require power plants to install their tech.
Agencies, by contrast, are staffed by scientists, economists, physicians, and other experts who are more capable of evaluating difficult policy questions than a handful of people with law degrees.
The fundamental question raised in both cases is whether nine unelected lawyers, all of whom have life tenure, should be placed in charge of virtually every policymaking decision made by the executive branch of government.
Justice Kavanaugh, in particular, seemed so eager to give himself this power that he might as well have spent the argument shopping for gold crowns and drawing up an invitation list for his coronation.
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3Expand court!
2Pendulum swings bitches!
-2Chevron Deference basically says that the actions of a federal agency cannot be questioned by anyone outside that agency; that the agency is accountable only to itself.
Regulatory capture is a major problem throughout government. Chevron Deference enables regulatory capture by denying judicial review of an agency's enforcement priorities.
Edit 1: Chevron Deference effectively prohibited judicial review of the FCC's deeply unpopular decision to suspend Net Neutrality in 2017.
Edit 2: Chevron Deference effectively prohibits judicial review of NHTSA CAFE standards, which are incentivizing manufacturers to radically increase vehicle sizes, thus increasing total emissions.
-14Chevron deference means that federal agencies (FDA, SEC, OSHA, etc) can regulate their respective areas without Congress needing to pass a law for each regulation.
This is important because Congress moves incredibly slowly, and there are far far too many specific instances that would need to be legislated - there is literally not enough time spent in session.
Overturning Chevron would make things like lead in gasoline legal once again - it was only 'banned' by an EPA rule, congress also didn't specify what actions to take in the Asbestos Hazard Emergency Respond Act.
The Safe Drinking Water Act, Clean Air act, and so on would effectively be repealed. These were acts of Congress, but the text of these laws does not spell our allowed levels of various pollutants and punishments for exceeding them, so it would be toothless.
In short, it would be an absolute disaster. Even if you think there are too many regulations, eliminating all of them, across nearly all facets of life, overnight is the worst way to go about this imaginable.
36I agree completely: the agencies do need to be able to enact specific policies without having to petition Congress to enact them.
The problem isn't that the courts are deferring to the agencies. The problem is the degree of deference. I have no problem with presuming agency policies are valid, provided a plaintiff is afforded the opportunity to rebut that presumption in court.
Yes, Chevron deference made it easier for the EPA to take action against polluters. Chevron Deference also made it effectively impossible for net neutrality proponents to challenge Ajit Pai's FCC.
-3
Permanently Deleted
3I initially didn't adequately demonstrate my concerns, and differentiate them from those coming from Republicans. People assumed I was a shill.
I've added a couple examples to better demonstrate how Chevron overreaches.
I don't know that this court is the best one to overturn Chevron, but I know it needs to be overturned and replaced with something a little more reasonable.
Wickard v. Filburn also needs a similar degree of correction.
3
Chevron Deference basically says that the actions of a federal agency cannot be questioned by anyone outside that agency; that the agency is accountable only to itself.
That is not what it says AT ALL.
The very first step is a look at rather or not the agency’s interpretation fits the construction of the statute. Then, the regulation can only be enforced if the agency’s interpretation is reasonable and not arbitrary.
Your interpretation would put policy making in the hands of the courts. You claim that it is what prevented net neutrality from remaining law, but what stops a court from claiming there is no authority to regulate net neutrality at all? What makes you think that a judge would rule against CAFE standards as now enforced? You do realize how packed the judiciary is with right wing judges?
2The very first step is a look at rather or not the agency’s interpretation fits the construction of the statute. Then, the regulation can only be enforced if the agency’s interpretation is reasonable and not arbitrary.
No. What you are describing is how deference should work, not how it actually works. If it worked the way you say it does, I would have no problem with it. We are essentially in agreement on what should be happening.
Chevron deference is a two-step test. The first step is whether the statute explicitly authorizes the agency's actions. If not, the second step asks whether the agency's policy could conceivably arise from the statute.
The "reasonable" and "not arbitrary" questions you're talking about only arise after those two steps have been taken. Chevron Deference says that the agency - not the court - is solely responsible for answering those questions.
With net neutrality, the courts ask whether Congress explicitly intended to suspend Net Neutrality, and concludes they did not explicitly require it. They next ask whether suspending net neutrality is a power conveyed to the FCC by statute. Indeed, the FCC should and does have that power. The plaintiff then wishes the court to ask whether the suspension of net neutrality is fair, reasonably, appropriate, not arbitrary, necessary and proper, etc. But, the court points to Chevron Deference and tells the plaintiff that only the agency can answer such questions.
Whether we agree that this is a fair and accurate summary of Chevron Deference, we can agree that the system I just described is not appropriate, while the system you described is appropriate. The fundamental difference between the two systems is whether the courts should or should not be empowered to judge the "reasonableness" of the agency's interpretation.
You do realize how packed the judiciary is with right wing judges?
The agencies are packed with right wing directors and executives every time we have a GOP president.
While the courts are packed with right-wing judges, plaintiffs in major cases largely avoid them by "shopping" for the judges they want: they can raise their questions in courts known to be friendly to their positions.
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