I understand that the west has ridiculously high levels of propaganda against the DPRK but how do Communists argue with the fact that there is clearly some kind of family line to the leader role?

Shouldn't the role be "advertised" to other people as well? Why is it following the Kim family line when that seems completely against ML thought?

108 comments

In my view, it's perfectly valid to criticize the fact that the Kim family has been in charge the whole time. However, I don't think that's at odds with having critical support for DPRK.
- yeah I think disallowing immediate family (if not more) from holding public power is something every political system newer than "divine right of kings" should do. Hardly anyone whining about north korea gives a shit that the united states went bush - clinton - bush into another clinton being the presumptive candidate and our elections are probably less legitimate than the dprk.
  something something royal family something something usual decadence, two of them.
  
  Completely disallowing a public official's family from holding public office is undemocratic. If people want a specific person elected to a certain position, why shouldn't it be allowed because of their family?
  This issue is resolved by making public office less of a privilege and more of a job, which as far as I know is what has happened over time in the DPRK.
  
  Politics as a career should be the thing to get rid off.
- I couldn’t agree more, I’m not a fan of lifetime leaders or nepotism, but their contributions to a better Korea are admirable and inspiring
  
  By a better Korea do you mean powering cars with wood chips and charcoal and dying of malnutrition at 40?
- Yeah.. Our commie party has the same views

The leader of the SAC (formerly NDC) is the “leader” of the country, voted on by the SPA, which is elected by the people (SAC leader is also in WPK leadership as the CPC in China). This bias is attributed to the extreme conditions the dprk is under and the trust people have in the family.
Kim Jong Un is General Secretary of the Workers Party of Korea, and Chairman of the State Affairs Commission. These positions are elected by the WPK Party Congress and by the Supreme People’s Assembly respectively.
If Kim Jong Un didn’t wish to continue to hold his positions, one of the Vice-Chairpersons would take his place temporarily, and a successor would be discussed and elected at the next party conference, also likely a Vice-Chairperson.
For example, Kim Jong Il was elected into the Party Central Committee in the 70’s, and in 1974 was elected as the successor to Kim Il Sung. Jang Song-Thaek was elected to succeed Kim Jong Il, however, he wanted to reform certain areas, thus debate regarding his intentions and whether he was a revisionist or not ensued; the party then switched and had Kim Jong Un succeed Kim Jong Il.
Jang Song-Thaek then staged a coup in an attempt to consolidate power by force (confirming his intentions were not pure and that he was likely a revisionist in the intent of his “reform”). He was executed thereafter.
It’s important to mention Jang Song-Thaek to show that a successor to Chairman of the SAC doesn’t have to be a direct child of the former.
So, if Kim Jong Un were to retire, or wish to discontinue his positions, it would be somebody in the Politburo, or a Vice-Chairperson of the State Affairs Commission, to succeed him. However, there currently isn’t an elected successor appointed, because likely odds are that he isn’t retiring or dying in the near future.
All of Kim Jong Un’s roles within the DPRK are: Supreme Commander of the KPA, Chairman of the Central Military Commission of the WPK, General Secretary of the WPK, Chairman of the SAC, and Supreme Representative [as entailed in WPK leadership]
Kim Jong Un is not actually in total control of the DPRK; the Supreme People’s Assembly has, by far, the extreme majority of control over the latter. Kim Jong Un has never been in either the Supreme People’s Assembly or its respective Standing Committee. Premier is the second top rank within the SPA, currently held by Kim Jae Ryong [not related]. President of the Standing Committee (Presidium) is the top position within the SPA, a position held by Kim Yong-Nam [not related] until April 2019, where Choe Ryong-Hae thereafter was elected. That isn’t to say that Kim Jong Un holds no power within the DPRK, but anyone within the SPA certainly has more legislative authority.
Each person within the SPA, including Premier and Head of the Presidium, is elected (and thus their power is temporary and can be removed at any time). The closest thing to a dictatorship (so to speak) in the DPRK is the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, a determining class dictatorship of the majority which governs the state.
The only of the Kim family members (remember this is a common Korean surname, I am referring to the lineage of Kim Il Sung) to have an SPA position was Kim Il Sung, and he abolished his position. The “next in line” leader in the WPK is likely not to be a descendant of Kim Il Sung either.
- The leader of the SAC (formerly NDC) is the “leader” of the country, voted on by the SPA, which is elected by the people
  It's important to note that Americans also do not directly elect the president (that's the Electoral College), and that most countries ~70 years into their democratic experiments were substantially less democratic than this.
  
  Pretty much all the US leaders, whether political or economic, come from powerfully entrenched families, making the US a lineage-based feudal monarchy all but in name. This paragraph hits home:
  Some Background: History conditions much of our thinking about our political systems and most Western democracies resemble Rome’s in 60 BC when, as Robin Daverman humorously says, three aristocrats–politician Julius Caesar, military hero Pompey and billionaire Crassus–formed a backroom alliance that dominated the elected senate. The oligarchs ensured that proletarii votes changed nothing and that the masses remained invisible unless they rioted or died in one of the elites’ endless civil wars. Two thousand years later, in Britain’s general election of 1784, the son of the First Earl of Chatham and Hester Grenville, sister of the previous Prime Minister George Grenville, and the son of the First Baron Holland and Lady Caroline Lennox, daughter of Second Duke of Richmond, offered voters offered a choice of dukes. Today, in many European countries (even egalitarian Sweden) ‘democracy’ is a mere veneer over powerful feudal aristocracies that still control their economies. American voters recently watched a former president’s wife competing with a former president’s brother being defeated by a billionaire who installed his daughter and son-in-law in important government positions and ensured that, as John Dewey said, “U.S. politics will remain the shadow cast on society by big business as long as power resides in business for private profit through private control of banking, land and industry, reinforced by command of the press and other means of propaganda”. Most Western politicians are related by marriage or wealth and have, like all hereditary classes, lost sympathy with the broad mass of their fellow citizens to the extent that, as American political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page found, ‘the preferences of the average American appear to have a near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy’: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens
  
  It's important to note that the President is not the monarch of America. We have 3 separate but equal branches for this very purpose
- Gonna show my dog brain here a bit but is there a visual somewhere that delineates this? I’ve never seen it put together in such detail. There was a nice infographic a while back floating around showing how chinas govt was put together and it was a really handy tool to deploy against libs
  
  There was a graphic that went around for some time that compared all of Trump's executive powers with the same powers that were distributed among DPRK leadership. Just with that one comparison it was clear how much more decentralized the responsibilities are within the DPRK. Wish I could find it for you.
- Premier is the second top rank within the SPA, currently held by Kim Jae Ryong [not related].
  In 2020 the premier changed to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Tok-hun
  
  You're right, sorry

Are you sure that a family have absolute authority over North Korea and that the Kim family were not simply figure head or influential people with limited power?

There is no family line or monarchy. This is just false. People voted for them lmao, they can always change at any time but the people voted for this.
DPRK is a people's democracy. Not a monarchy or whatever people like to claim. Kim Jun Un is a great leader and so were the other kim's, they were all legitimately elected, they were voted because they are great leaders.
- "Its actually a totalitarian dystopia, no freedom guys"
- No one votes in North Korea, it's not allowed
  https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/wtf/shocking-laws-in-north-korea-556386.html
  "It is believed that about 200,000 North Koreans live in the camps. They were arrested for alleged political crimes. If a person commits a political crime, his entire family is interned. If a prisoner manages to escape, his entire family would be killed. 40% of prisoners interned in these concentration camps die from malnutrition. Many of them are sentenced to hard labor for seemingly reasonable terms, but more often than not they work to death."
  Sounds like a dictatorship to anyone with 4 brain cells
  
  Sounds like a dictatorship to anyone with 4 brain cells
  Indeed. lmao. Bold of you to confirm it. 😂😂
  
  Lmao, you're a joke. The voting process in DPRK is well documented if you actually look for real sources.
  All men and women can only do one of 28 government-approved haircuts, 18 for women, 10 for men; other hairstyles are prohibited. North Korean leader Kim Jong Un introduced this law in 2013 and did not include his hairstyle on this list because he wanted to keep it unique and absolutely no one can dare to copy his hairstyle. It is assumed that married women should wear shorter haircuts than unmarried women.
  Do you sincerely believe this shit? Like are you, Armen12, on this day on Lemmygrad, declaring to the world that you've abandoned all critical thinking and choose to live your life with the cognitive capacities of a lettuce slug from this day forward?
  Nobody at the top level believes this crap lol. This is just gossip fodder for fashion magazines to print and remind people that the US and their made up state in the ROK are still at war with the DPRK and they need to keep up some war propaganda once in a while so that some day they can launch missiles at Korea and have people cheer for it.
  You can legit go on wikipedia, type up DPRK and go from bluelink to bluelink down into obscure pages that the CIA hasn't touched too much yet and learn about all the state figures in the DPRK that are not Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il or Kim Jong Un. All the state commissions, all the state positions and officials who've held those historically, shit you can even learn about the coalition that forms the Parliament composed of three parties including the WPK.
  Do you actually believe that any country in the world would last for more than 10 years if they were this comically evil? The reason nobody at the top level in the west believes this shit is because they know how hard it is to manage macro stuff like, I don't know, an entire country. In the feudal past this ended with revolutions, but there has been no such thing in the DPRK in over 70 years. Why is that? Could it be that you're ignorant and should admit you know nothing but war propaganda about the DPRK? No, it must be the Koreans who are brainwashed and kept on a leash!
  
  The USA still uses prison slavery BTW
  
  Only government-approved haircuts
  Are we still giving credibility to this in 2023?

It's not unusual for people from certain political families to simply stand out and hold a special place in a country's politics. It's a consequence of the immense popularity that a particular leader may have had during their tenure, which can end up rubbing off on those who have the same name. Assad is another example of this, and for the United states you have the Kennedys as well. India is another example, with the Ghandi family (no relation to THAT Ghandi) has had multiple generations of leaders voted in as prime minister or as opposition leaders.
- The Bushes and Clintons are also an example in addition to the Kennedys; the Bush family has been manipulating Amerika into cryptofascist warhawkery since the end of World War 2.
  
  Didn’t one of the bushes try to do a fascist coup even before WW2? I think the business plot was earlier
- Yeah it's basically "What if the Kennedys had seen the US through a the complete destruction by bomb and rebuilding of the country"
  
  I'd vote for em (in this hypothetical) 🤷‍♂️
  I'd prolly also lambast anyone who decided they weren't worth voting for as foolish. Much like term limit scaremongering, a lot of the sealioning about the Kim "dynasty" is predicated on a rather infantile understanding of democracy. Not that OP did or is doing this by asking in good faith.
- The Kennedys, the Bushes, the Clintons, the Roosevelts...
  
  Roosevelt's are a good example because it was the popular one who made charges to benefit ordinary people and became so re-electable, they had to change the term limits to get rid of him.

This is the best read on this: https://web.archive.org/web/20230409194611/https://rolandtheodoreboer.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/2018-an-effort-to-understand-the-dprk.pdf
Why is it following the Kim family line when that seems completely against ML thought?
I think firstly, we've got to accept that it is real, the Kim family does hold a special place in that country. Trying to say, "Oh no, they were just legitimately elected", or "They're not special" is trying to deny the reality and impose some foreign image on the country.
- They "hold a special place" because the people in the country love the kims, this was not forced on them, they can always vote for a new leader who isnt from their family. They have all been great leaders and the DPRK is a people's democracy. Please stop spreading western propaganda.
  
  you shouldn't love somebody's kid before that kid actually does anything on their own, and it should be far less impressive when the accomplishment is only possible because of the parent's position and access to resources not available to regular people.
  i don't need western propaganda to think that kind of paternalism gross and sus.
- That was a really interesting read and actually explained it very well.. Thank you. Do you have any other things to read on the DPRK in general?
  
  Juche idea study course: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=OymYKXvrCF0
  'Let us advance under the banner of Marxism-Leninism and the Juche Idea' – https://archive.org/details/LetUsAdvanceUnderTheBannerOfMarxism-leninismAndTheJucheIdeaOnThe
  John Major: 'Want undiluted sovereignty? Go to North Korea' – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36170066
  RAND report in 2020: DPRK will have 200 nukes by 2027 – https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/07/07/north-korea-nuclear-weapons-united-states-deterrence/ – https://www.rand.org/news/advisories/2021/04/12.html
  Juche Idea: Answers to Hundred Questions – https://archive.org/details/juche-questions
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Eliminating_Dogmatism_and_Formalism_and_Establishing_Juche_in_Ideological_Work
  https://exploredprk.com/articles/housing-problem-and-the-dprk/
  https://exploredprk.com/
  http://www.gnu.rep.kp/ – the official website of DPRK broadcasting. There’s some videos on the site. The .kp TLD is controlled by DPRK, all websites that end with .kp are DPRK websites.
  https://kcnawatch.org/kctv-archive/ – has video archives of DPRK TV broadcast. KCNA is the name of the DPRK state news but this website is owned by an American company called NK News
  healthcare system: https://web.archive.org/web/20221024155438/https://www.globalasia.org/v16no3/cover/north-koreas-surprisingly-robust-healthcare-system_kee-b-parkedward-i-ham
  Really boring Swiss report about the technicalities of how the political system works there. This type of source is good because it's not propaganda, it's for academics and governance experts – https://web.archive.org/web/20221217045342/https://www.asgp.info/Publications/CPI-English/1992_163_01-e.pdf
  Election data – https://web.archive.org/web/20171021163836/https://archive.ipu.org/parline-e/reports/2085_E.htm
  https://www.38north.org/resources/ – This is a very good website. It's run by Korean-Americans who are bilingual in English and Korean, and is dedicated to understanding primary sources from within the DPRK, like academic journals about economics. Article about consumerism. Article about banking. 'Reports of North Korea’s Return to a Command Economy Have Been Exaggerated'. https://www.38north.org/2023/02/understanding-kim-jong-uns-economic-policymaking-key-findings-and-implications/
  N. Korea revises constitution to include Kim Jong-un’s reform-oriented approach to economy [2019]: https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_northkorea/901610.html
  https://web.archive.org/web/20210329180009/https://www.dailynk.com/english/north-koreas-new-agricultural-system-yields-promising-results/
  Documentary: loyal citizens of pyongyang in seoul
  Documentary: my brothers and sisters in the north
  youtube channel: DPRK explained
  Talking points/one-pager: https://dprkorea.carrd.co/ or https://web.archive.org/web/20230502123305/https://dprkorea.carrd.co/
  https://www.kfausa.org/resources/ – overseas outreach arm
  
  "Patriots, traitors and empires" by Stephen gowans. It's a great read on the history of Korea.
- What a great morning read, thanks.

Didn’t they all actually have different positions and just hold a hereditary figurehead role symbolically? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il_Sung https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong_Il https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong_Un

I'm just a baby at this and trying to ask in good faith so sorry if this is asked a lot.
- its ok dw abt it
- Some links I came across ages back. They might be useful.
  
  A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on Teddit and Libreddit, which are Reddit frontends that protect your privacy.
  teddit.zaggy.nl
  teddit.hostux.net
  r.darklab.sh
  reddit.smnz.de
- Thanks for asking and wanting to learn! Welcome :)

not exactly what you are asking, but its worth remembering the Korean war when trying to understand DPRK. One in every five people died as a result of bombardment by the USA, which is one of the main reasons the DPRK hates the US so much.

I agree. For a counterexample, Cuba passed the torch to an outsider after Fidel and Raul retired.
There is a tendency amongst western communists of uncritical support for AES countries. Yes, I do support North Korean people and their right to exist outside of capitalism. Yes, I am critical of their incestuous leadership structure and the consequent corruption that arises from such practices.
- You make it seem like it's inherently good to elect someone not related to the previous leader, but we need to take a step back and ask why is this desirable? As was explained in another comment, another chairman was elected before Kim Jong Un but he tried to stage a coup after he was retired for his right-wing reforms (speaking relatively here). Outsider does not always mean better.
  Also something I haven't seen people touch on yet is that all three Kim's have held different functions. Kin Jong Un is the general of the armies as well as the foreign minister of sorts (closer to the president but for foreign affairs). That's why we see him meet with foreign officials and we see him at weapons tests. I think he goes to factories and such in his capacity as Chairman of the WPK (and leader of the coalition encompassing three parties in the DPRK's parliament).
  
  all three Kim’s have held different functions.
  To add to this, Kim Jong-Un did not run for re-election to the Supreme People’s Assembly in 2019
  
  Note that I didn't criticize the Kim family specifically.
  The whole of North Korean military and governmental high level positions are much more closely related than CPC for example.
  Lineal succession of the Kim family is just a visible portion of the inner-circle domination. The Party itself has a problem.

Only western failson dynasties are allowed to do that because it's just inherited greatness in the meritocracy.

Communists are just fascists just to pretend like the people have any rights whatsoever when they clearly don't. China treats it's own people like slaves and it's the same in every communist country
- Communists are not fascists and I can prove it in two seconds, because I know you'll be out there calling for the deportation of minorities in three years time, but you'll never be out there protesting for the nationalisation of resources.
  
  China doesn't allow minorities to have lives in China and they're a deeply racist country, especially if you're black. On the flip side, Japan and Taiwan are perfectly friendly towards outsiders and welcoming places. China is like the incel of countries
- You didn't have to say you're an idiot, yet here you are.
- Sounds like something a fascist would say 🤔

The DPRK isn’t ML, and hasn’t been for like 40 years. They’re kind of doing their own thing.
- Wrong!
  
  Hey, if privileged westerners declare their version of socialism invalid, who are we to argue? They're clearly world experts on this and everyone else should automatically defer to them when it comes to socialist states passing the purity test. (Not saying the person above you is like that, just that they're channeling that energy)
- Each country adapts ML to their own circumstances — in China we have socialism with Chinese characteristics, in North Korea we have Juche, etc.

108 comments