Why do password managers charge for TOTP code generation?
Why do password managers charge for TOTP code generation?
Is this some sort of a convenience feature hidden behind a paywall to justify purchasing their subscriptions or does generating the codes actually cost money? If the latter is the case, how do applications like Aegis do it free of cost?
It's a convenience feature upsell, the calculations happen locally.
51That's just an excuse to charge more. TOTP is standardized in RFC 6238 and cost nothing to generate.
46The "Product Led Growth" crowd doesn't care about charging based on what things cost. They only care about what the buyer will tolerate. The "value metric" that pisses me off the most is per user pricing when the service doesn't incur costs per user.
5The “value metric” that pisses me off the most is per user pricing when the service doesn’t incur costs per user.
Even in cases where there is a cost per user (or there is at least a correlation in cost increase with number of users) the price is usually many orders of magnitude larger than the cost increase.
2
On top of that, it takes no more than 5 lines of Python code to generate
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bitwarden does it behind a convenience fee, fair enough, its a worth while service to support. If you self host, you have no such barriers.
37$10/yr to support BitWarden and get a few convenience features is something I'm cool with.
41
its best to keep passwords and totp separate
32Naaah, in "Multiple factor Authentication", the word "factor" is just to look cool... The original MfA meant "Multiple fields Authentication". (I'll see myself out)
4i dont think i know what youre talking about?... but factor refers to one of three types: something you know (passwords), have (totp or yubikey), or are (biometrics). having 2 passwords is almost the same as having one password, since they are the same factor. thats why having totp linked to your password manager is basically like having 2 passwords. it almost defeats the point
2
Nowadays many services just force MFA on you in some way, and stuff like SMS or email verification is shitty, insecure and inconvenient. TOTP is then the next best thing, and having it integrated with a password manager is fine as long as you are aware of the risks.
2mfa is good tho. i think its almost good its forced on normies. sms/email 2fa is garbage however, and google authenticator is very bad for privacy. for most people (assuming you have a phone), is it really that much to have a separate password-locked 2fa totp app? they exist for both phone and desktop, and can be synced (although personally i cant see that being a good idea). totp is basically a hidden password hashed with the current time, so if the hidden password is leaked it can be replicated at any time. if your main computer gets compromised or keylogged, then accessing one 6-digit code is worthless unless used in the next 30s, unlike the totp secrets
4
Not sure I agree.
Yes, your password manager is a single point of failure this way. But I would argue any non-SMS based TOTP is better than none, so if a higher percentage of people use it the easy way instead of not at all I consider that a win.
After all, you would still not only need the password but also access to the manager which technically is more than one factor.
2
TIL password managers charge for 2FA.
- Get a free password manager.
- Get a free 2FA App. Please don't mix passwords and 2FA so you don't reduce it to 1FA.
For 1) I use PasswdSafe, because I can merge databases with Password Gorilla as I like.
For 2) I use Aegis. You can download an icon theme, which is quite cool.
31For the 2nd point:
Mixing it doesn't reduce it to 1fa - it still makes your accounts immune to Passwort leaks and common attacks
You are only at a 1FA level if someone hacked your PW-Manager but in that instance you're most likely fucked anyway
Sure for the most important accounts having 2FA in another app is good so you can at least secure those if the PW-Safe leaked but I have 2FA on every single website I use(d) that offers it - even if I'm only on there once a year so using a special app is less important than just having the additional security in the first place
18You are only at a 1FA level if someone hacked your PW-Manager but in that instance you’re most likely fucked anyway
As long as you at least have actual, separate 2FA for access to your recovery email(s) you should be more or less fine.
Unless you mean that if your password manager is compromised it probably means that your device is compromised, which also means that you're probably also a victim to a session hijack for the recovery email(s), in which case you are truly fucked.
You can also have a multi-level approach where for "higher value" accounts you have a separate password database so the more valuable accounts aren't exposed as much as everything else... There are definitely options.
2
It's free on KeePass, use syncthing to have personal libre cloud.
26Please don’t use your password manager for TOTP tokens. It is called two factor authentication for a reason.
19The reason that 2fa exists is not to protect you if someone gets their hands on your device. It's to protect you if your "static" credentials leaked from a providers' database or you otherwise got phished. Using a password manager to handle mfa is totally reasonable.
35If you are really worried about the password manager being an intrusion vector, secure your vault with a hardware key.
10It is reasonable yet subpar under a threat model where you do not trust any single provider, which is a model I find appropriate most of the time.
1There are other ways your password database could leak. For example you could use a weak password, or it could leak in some way, and if you store it on a cloud service that also got compromised you'd be fucked without a compromised device.
But yeah, all these are much less likely.
1
I feel like this needs to be pushed back on a little bit. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. Having a password manager that provides good passwords and TOTP as a second factor is way better than only using a password.
Sure, it would be nice if you had two devices. A phone password manager and a usb security key, but for many people it is inconvenient to carry a security key to plug when you need it. I’d rather that person keep a TOTP on their phone in that case rather than not use two factor due to inconvenience.
Your concern is mostly about “what if someone steals your phone or computer” then they have both factors. However, your average person isn’t getting hacked by someone they know, and random local thieves aren’t typically sophisticated enough to do more than re-sell stolen computer equipment. The average person is getting hacked by some dude in a foreign country who dumped a password database or phished a password. That person isn’t stealing your device so the fact that both factors are in the same place doesn’t really mean anything.
Also, most password managers are locked by biometrics these days. In that case, it isn’t really the app that is the second factor. It is your fingerprint or face. Someone may steal your device, but if they can’t get into the password manager that needs a password and biometrics then they don’t have anything.
24You should not assume your password manager is unhackable.
That’s my main point. Perfect is an enemy of good indeed, but I feel that doing things properly the first time is a good idea in general, especially when it as easy as using a different app for your TOTP tokens. It’s a low hanging fruit really.
1
I do that mainly for accounts I don't care about but either way it does increase security as compared to just a password in many cases..... I just wish that some of these services didn't require TOTP
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Keepassxc and macpass do it for free
19If your password manager is charging for that get a new manager as almost all managers will do that for free
12Because the business model works that way.
Draw them in with features and lock the actual security features behind an additional pay wall.
Enterprise environments is rife with this kind of crap. Sso.tax lists some of the worse ones.
7It's completely open and it's just another fee you can pay. Switch to KeePass if you want restriction-free password management.
5Keepassxc doesn't
2Permanently Deleted
1I use KeePassXC which doesn't charge a cent for this.
1Just pay for stuff you want to depend on. Its really not a big deal. If you wanna live dangerously and you have an iPhone, the iPhone's keychain (Settings > Passwords) can help you with that for free although the security is dubious if you're not in Lockdown mode...
0If you like Bitwarden you might wanna search for a publicly hosted Vaultwarden instance that accepts user registrations. You'll get Bitwarden with its full premium feature set.
-8Not 100% on board with that idea. There is no guarantee the server is not tampered. Unless you know and trust the host, Bitwarden premium is very affordable and Vaultwarden can be hosted even on free VPS. Or you can even use a KeePass fork (I'm not up to date as to what the best ones are) with any form of online sync.
12Well, yes, I agree on that. Just wanted to name another option in case that's okay for the OP. I host my own instance on my private NAS and I absolutely love it. :)
1If you are willing to host something yourself you might as well selfhost Nextcloud and use KeePass(XC) with it.
1What's the best free VPS? I pay about $15 per year for mine... But its good enough to run woocommerce/wordpress for a small store
0