For some people it's religion - they don't want to see what the heathens are saying. Any non-compliance is dogmatically meet with negativity. I can see why they got into this position, they build their identity and their ethics around their food - the introspection required to have a conversation would also require the ability to cast doubt on their own identity. That is difficult for anyone to do!

Yeah... maybe explosive arrows to start with. But I think its credible they exported the war technology for their other conquests. The mongols are so fascinating. I love the Dan Carlin Hardcore History episodes on them.

The RDA is an estimate of the minimum amount of protein needed to meet the needs of 97% of healthy adults. The RDA is designed to prevent malnutrition, not necessarily to promote “optimal” health. Institute of Medicine 2005: Dietary reference intakes for energy, carbohydrate, fiber, fat, fatty acids, cholesterol, protein, and amino acids

People who need to heal need more protein - such as burn victims, recovering from surgery, injuries, or even just body building (every day at the gym is a very minor injury the body repairs).

The protein debate about adequate levels is ongoing

I think its more sustainable for people to prioritize protein in their meals and eat until they are not longer hungry. Let the body's biofeedback mechanism be the guide.

What Western diets desperately do need to focus on, however, is fiber

Fibre is not a essential nutrient. Meaning it provides nothing the body can't produce on its own.

dietary fiber is a carbohydrate that resists digestion and absorption and may or may not undergo microbial fermentation in the large intestine. This definition is essentially the basis to its correlation between consumption levels and possible health benefits. https://doi.org/10.3390/nu2121266

Most of the reported benefits of Fibre are from people eating a unhealthy (western) diet, and the fibre reducing the impact of the bad food. I would agree fiber is a necessary to ameliorate a bad diet (western), but not necessary with a good diet.

There has been a associative link established between fibre consumption and gut biome diversity in the western diet, but we don't know what a good gut biome is yet. We have data that people eating zero fibre also have very diverse gut biomes.

push back against the progress vegans have made

Two people reinforcing their assumptions about a group rather then talking to that group are not going to have a realistic view of the world.

For myself, I'm very concerned with reducing human suffering:

Carnivore is a tool, mostly used by people who have very specific problems. I tried to make that very clear in my decision tree post, which you downvoted - which means you read it, right?

I don't think a crash diet is warranted as a intervention. Regardless of when you burn it (now vs later) its going to cause inflammation and reduced ATP production. I think its better to let it happen very slowly, naturally, so that your bodies inflammation budget is high and it isn't a big deal. Forcing it all at once doesn't seem like a great idea. Just keep eating clean and healthy!

The Mongols were lucky that the people they were fighting didn't have guns yet, back when being stronger and taller mattered.

It's possible the mongols had a key role in the history of gunpowder https://warhistory.org/@msw/article/the-mongol-wars-and-the-evolution-of-the-gun-1211-1279

The theory that they spread the knowledge and concept across their empire is interesting

You are what you eat. It's insidious. It makes sense that fat is stored energy so if we build it with bad things when we unpack it will still be bad.

Kinda like the LSD users who get random trips throughout their lives from stores LSD in their fat.

I suppose you could speed up the LA usage by doing fasting and refeeding with clean food.

Industry funded research wouldn't be trusted, but it would kick off more interest and research to confirm or deny oxalate theories.

I'm lucky that I was never a big fan of oxalate foods during my Omnivore days. I never went through any dumping symptoms

The ice age diet!

Health effects associated with consumption of processed meat, sugar-sweetened beverages and trans fatty acids: a Burden of Proof study

Study title... CNN title is only about meat.

A meta-analysis of observational epidemiology

All of the issues with epidemiology apply

• association is not causation
• hypothesis generating only
• healthy user confounders
• people eating meat are often eating high carbohydrate diets
• metabolic context of the participants
• food frequency questionnaires filled out yearly or every 4 years.

I don't have access to the paper, it hasn't made it to the Free Academic circles yet, so I haven't been able to read it.

Make friends in meat space. Have activities you do with other people regularly

I don't think you should stop, the use case you described is you WANT to have a conversation about the cross-posts you are doing. Your not motivated by trying to starve out another community. You are personally choosing what to cross post and not reposting EVERYTHING from a different community.

It's such a temptation, anything you want, delivered in 20 minutes. Convenient and tempting in one bundle.

I have a breath ketone meter that helps keep me on track; I’m not sure how accurate it is, but it’s very consistent. If you haven’t tried one maybe give it a go

I haven't tried one yet. I have the finger stick ketone meter - ketomojo, and that works really well. The numbers help me stay on track once I'm clean, but getting clean is a mental and physical struggle regardless of the numbers. Thankfully I'm over the hump now, the food noise is gone and i don't have any cravings!

The literature is remarkably empty with respect to oxalate dumping, this is very much a community theory.

and demonstrate clinically that a KD may permanently restore normal brain function

Most studies report that the KD improves cognition (13–19), improves sociability and repetitive behaviors (20–23), and reduces nociception (24–26): all behavioral endpoints with relevance to dopamine-related behaviors (see below), including perseverative behaviors and potentially chronic pain – thought to share multiple mechanisms and comorbidities with addiction (27). Importantly, KD-related behavioral improvement in children with epilepsy is not solely due to seizure reduction (13, 28–32), thus indicating therapeutic benefits that are uncorrelated with the primary anticonvulsant/antiepileptogenic effects.

Diverse lines of evidence point to the neuromodulator adenosine as a key mechanism underlying short and long-term therapeutic benefits of metabolic therapy with a KD....in vivo evidence that KD feeding elevates brain adenosine

Manipulating the adenosine system is common – caffeine, a non-selective antagonist for adenosine A1 receptors (A1R) and adenosine A2 receptors (A2R), is the most widely used psychoactive drug worldwide

Some evidence suggests the KD alters dopamine directly.

Energy homeostasis – particularly changes in ATP and adenosine – is known to be relevant but poorly understood in neuroprotection, psychiatric disorders and addiction (81, 82). KDs supply a substrate (ketone bodies) for the citric acid cycle that elevates ATP and promotes mitochondrial function, including in impaired states

Brain hypometabolism has been reported with alcohol and online gaming addiction (98), with stimulant abuse (99, 100), in Alzheimer’s disease and mild cognitive impairment (101, 102), and indeed even with normal aging (103). As a dynamic and energy-demanding organ, and as a survival mechanism, it makes sense that metabolism is reflected in neurological function and behavior and that mitigating metabolic dysfunction is a potent therapeutic strategy

i.e. Keto improving metabolism improves brain metabolism, improves addictive behavior cycles.

Hyperglycemia causes inflammation (111, 112) and is associated with psychiatric re-hospitalization. Inflammation is a biomarker for and perhaps a cause of depression (113), and much evidence shows that KDs reduce inflammation in patients (114–117) and in pre-clinical models

Getting the blood glucose down helps with multiple psychiatric conditions.

KD feeding reduces both the responses to acute cocaine (day one of the sensitizing regimen; challenge day for saline-treated animals) and repeated cocaine. Considered together, these data were the first to show that KD treatment can modify behavioral responses to a monoaminergic stimulant, and suggest that KDs are a potential novel therapy for the treatment of addiction to these drugs.

KD feeding did not appear to modulate the acquisition of the cocaine-related place preference. However, when cocaine was withheld (i.e. extinction), mice on the KD more quickly lost the place preference. In addition, a cocaine priming injection after extinction reinstated the place preference only for the standard diet mice; mice that were on KD did not experience reinstatement.

Better recovery.

Regarding the commonly abused drug ethanol, in rat models of dependence KD-fed animals made fewer lever presses to receive alcohol during acute withdrawal (129) and had reduced withdrawal symptoms (130, 131). In mice, both KD and a ketone monoester (which is metabolized to ketone bodies) reduced withdrawal symptoms even when treatment was started during withdrawal

Food cravings, binge eating being an extreme form, are often considered to be a naturalistic analog of drug abuse. Excessive glucose and insulin spikes are thought to modify the brain leading to addiction-like binge eating; KD feeding will temper such spikes

I really feel this one.

high dietary sugar intake is associated with depression and anxiety in non-diabetic individuals (179–181). These associations do not determine causation but, intriguingly, there are suggestions that depression in the elderly might predispose the development of type II diabetes (182, 183). KDs minimize dietary sugar intake, and provided a stable, mild hypoglycemia which should counteract these deleterious effects on mood.

There is strong evidence of a metabolic underpinning of ASD, in addition to the genetic and environmental components. For example, this disorder has been found to involve hypoperfusion of specific brain regions (198–200) and to be associated with hyperglycemia, mitochondrial dysfunction, and adenosine dysfunction (201–204).

Taken together, the relationship between metabolic health and a broad range of neurological conditions is emerging, including mental health. The relationship among adenosine, dopamine, and ketogenic metabolic therapy is primary because of the ability to link cell energy, neuronal signaling, and gene expression for both short and long-term effects in key brain areas.

It's free, so why not try it?

It's interesting that people report being able to better break addictions when they are on a ketogenic diet; the Adenosine connection is compelling

I don’t think we’ll agree here nor do I think it’s fruitful to argue it because in my environment I’ve heard that saturated fat is the devil and the main cause for heart decease which is the second most prominent cause of death only trumped by cancer, while you are stating it as a healthy thing. I don’t have the time to research this nor do I think health is a valid justification for harming animals.

I don't trust things I hear either. Here is a excellent overview of the literature - https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/saturated-fat#evidence-to-date I highly encourage you to read the actual journal articles, I'll do a journal club with you. But TLDR CVD is rooted in inflammation and persistently elevated insulin levels.

Cancer is a interesting one too! While the mechanisms of cancer are still unclear, it is strongly rooted in a inflammatory injury causing mitochondrial dysfunction. Here is a post on cancer as a metabolic disease, I link the journals directly. https://hackertalks.com/post/8609461 TLDR - The metabolic theory of cancer is based on cancer cells being UNABLE to metabolize fat, and only able to consume glucose and glutamine.

Now taking this together, would insulin sensitivity in a person make them less likely to get cancer, and if they do get cancer, better able to fight off the cancer? I think so, at least the balance of evidence points in that direction.

From your expression of wanting a more humane way to slaughter, and desire to euthanize a suffering animal I am assuming we can find common grounds in that direction.

Great, if you have recommendations on how I can source best practice, least harm, meat - please let me know.

Would you agree that animals can suffer and are you against animal abuse?

Yes, but my premise is that ABF is critical and necessary for my personal health journey and not optional. Given that I must consume ABF what is the best way to do that?

We disagree on the fundamental premise. If you see an animal on the side of the road in pain, do you leave it be? Or do you help it exit

In the animal-based food community, we're following a program that is removing plant foods, because of the associated problems they have, specifically plant steriles, lectins, other inflammatory compounds.

The ketogenic community also has significant problems with the dietetics philosophical approach. Basically it is a philosophy, it is not based in hard science, and that's the core problem. The ketogenic community is generating hard science showing that the previous dietetic beliefs do not lead to the outcomes people are looking for

I'm happy to continue this discussion with you, but only in the context where we both work towards a more humane way to process meat.

If your philosophy is that you don't eat meat, I respect that, you're making a major lifestyle choice based on a philosophy. That's commendable. However, for health reasons I've made a different choice. And I ask that you respect that and help me be the best version of myself I can be in that context.

If you're trying to use the Socratic method to persuade me to your viewpoint, you have to start with a point of common agreement. And we haven't established that

That's the butt right? Keeping keys up there would be a unique experience, how do you prevent lock fowling?