1 yr. ago • 94%

Why is the DEA and ATF separate? Seems like they cover similar things from similar circles.

Is it because alcohol, tobacco, and firearms also have legal pathways? So they spend time tracking down cheats and checking/enforcing regulations?

54 comments

I'm still annoyed alcohol isn't administered by the Food and Drug Administration. It's both a food and a drug. I want nutrition labels (mostly for the calorie count) on my alcohol. They don't have them because the ATF does not require them as the FDA does.

Honestly, the ATF can just be split with half being folded into the FDA and the other half folded into the FBI. The ATF doesn't need to exist.

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- Although neither the ATF nor DEA existed before the 70s, part of the reason might have to do with ATF’s precursor existing for a really long time, before we cared about many other drugs. DEA pretty much came about under Nixon’s war on drugs.
  
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- But what about prohibition era gangsters smuggling guns cigarettes and liquor? How will we fight that scourge?
  
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- Yes. Fuck the ATF. The FBI should handle enforcement of laws regarding firearms and destructive devices at the federal level, according to laws passed by federal legislature. There’s no need for a middle man.
  
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  The middle man is great if you want to ensure no action is ever taken
  
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- Take a look at their federal registers at the type of different actions they've been up to lately. You will see they are completely different.
  
  https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-bureau
  
  https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/drug-enforcement-administration
  
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- It's both a food and a drug.
  
  Drinks are food?
  
  -3
  
  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/food
  
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ATF = cracking down on legal funtime stuffs

DEA = cracking down on illegal funtime stuffs

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- Never understood the ATF hate until I became a gun enthusiast. Heysus! Even us libs hate 'em!
  
  I bought a perfectly legal .22 rifle, pretty much this (without whatever suppressor thing is shown). It's like the baby brother version of an AR-15. Jams a lot, but it's fun!
  
  Note the stupid looking flexible stock. That was a way to get a "short barreled rifle" because a normal, rigid stock would be illegal. "Uh, it's not a stock. It's a handicap thing for one-armed shooters." Yes, it can work that way and yes, it's a loophole.
  
  Now I'm a felon for owning such a thing even though it was legal when I bought it. ATF: "We changed our mind. And no your gun isn't grandfathered. Because fuck you, that's why."
  
  Shit like this is why shooters rail against any gun legislation. One dumb thing after another like this sucks political capital that could be spent on better, more effective gun laws.
  
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  So many gun laws are just fucking stupid. Tons of stuff is banned because it looks scary.
  
  SBRs being illegal is pretty dumb.
  
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  I'm with you. We absolutely need some common sense gun legislation, but every time it comes up, it turns into a political mess. And almost all of the legislation is either like a bandaid on a leaking dam, or overbearing nanny-state bullshit.
  
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  Who cares. People who get upset at this shit are fucking babies. Kids are getting shot left and right. Nobody gives a fuck about your short barrel.
  
  0
They could easily combine to create an organization called DAFT

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- they would each rather be daft separately
  
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Don't forget that back in 1998, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms reached a Trade Agreement with the Food & Drug Administration

WASHINGTON, DC—The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms and the Food & Drug Administration reached a formal trade agreement Monday. Under the terms of the deal, the ATF will provide the FDA with alcohol, tobacco and firearms in exchange for equal value in food and drugs.

"My administrative assistants and I were enjoying some of our food the other day when it hit us," FDA Commissioner Michael Friedman said. "We have tons of food lying around, and tons of drugs, but nothing to drink, smoke or shoot. Then, someone—I think it was [deputy commissioner] Phil [Royce]—suggested we call up those guys at the ATF across town and see what we could get. Turns out, they were ready to deal."

...

https://www.theonion.com/bureau-of-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-reaches-trade-agr-1819564792

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- Ate the Onion
  
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Governments are organized according to political processes rather than rational ones.

Even under ideal conditions, any (especially larger) organizational body is extremely difficult to keep from falling into these types of irrationality.

We have many names for variations on the phenomenon. I'll cite groupthink. You can fall down a rabbit hole on your own from there.

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- literally 1984
  
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It's because the main laws that regulated these things arise out of different statutes that were enacted at different times and under different circumstances.

An agency's main job is to interpret and execute its enabling statute. They may seem similar but the subject matter is all very different.

You'd have to read about the history of each of these two agencies.

I don't know much myself but I suspect they were born out of working groups from predecessor agencies.

12
Yeah, that's about it. The ATF deals with making minor interpretations of existing law regarding its purview (which are sometimes challenged in court) as well as enforcement of regulation regarding items that are legal. The DEA is all about enforcement of the prohibition on drugs. It's the same reason that the DEA and the FDA are different, despite both dealing in drugs.

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- despite both dealing in drugs.
  
  Heh. Don't forget the CIA!
  
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  Oi, you're a cheeky one, ain't ya! 😆
  
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Most people don't consider alcohol and tobacco drugs, also alcohol, tobacco and guns have been around in the US for hundreds of years. Pretty much all the drugs that the DEA covers are relatively new compared to alcohol and tobacco, Cannabis is probably the only exception but even that wasn't nearly as common to grow and consume as the other two. The ATF was founded a year before the DEA.

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- Are we forgetting that you could buy morphine and even diamorphine tinctures legally for a long time? Often marketed as cough medicine.
  
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  You could buy cocaine legally over the counter when Lincoln was president.
  
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- Kinda how I figured it, but didn't know how closely in time they were founded. Interesting!
  
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  Me either, I looked it up to figure it out and was surprised as well. I thought they were founded further apart. I think the ATF had a different name formerly.
  
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Alcohol and pills are the good drugs because they come from corporations.

Moonshine and diacetyl morphine are the bad drugs because they come from criminals.

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What I want to know is; why is there an enforcement agency for alcohol, tobacco and firearms, when they are are all 3 legal?

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- All 3 can be done illegally too.
  
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- Regulation requires enforcement to work.
  
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