.world mods are removing Thomas Jefferson quotes for "advocating violence"

lemmy.world Modlog - Lemmy.World

How deep are they willing to guzzle that Nazi boot?

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.world removing Thomas Jefferson quotes for "advocating violence"

lemmy.world /modlog

25 14

88 comments

.world sucks ass, it's a reddit clone
- Lol says the "reddthat" user. Actually it's a good instance name, but the irony ...
  
  Reddthat disables downvotes, so quite different from Reddit
- There are a few news related subs on .world with shitty moderators, the rest of the instance is as chill as anywhere else. If you see .world mentioned here, it is probably the News community.
- I wish i could find a better instance. :c
  
  You can. This community is on a good instance.
  
  ...have you expended the slightest bit of effort to do that? Because there are plenty.

Unless demanded by local legislation, that's a clear PTB in my book.
So. You have a link about the usage of force by the dogs of some broligarchic junta. Clearly unnecessary, unless someone thinks people in wheelchair are such a violent threat that it demands such measures. The group was arrested mostly for "Crowding, Obstructing, and Incommoding" - i.e. some "quick, find some law that fits this situation, so we can get rid of those things! Heil Chrump!".
Then you have a commenter (the_q) correctly pointing out shit won't progress unless people actually fight back. And another (PancakesCantKillMe) clearly quoting something; I don't even know (or care) who this Thomas Turbano guy is, but the second comment is clearly a quote.
So, let ask me the following: accordingly to the LW mods, is self-defence violence?
If it is not, then those comments should not be removed as "advocating violence".
If it is, then they're effectively promoting that people should lower themselves from human beings to punching bags of their local junta.
Don't get me wrong - I don't even think they're doing this "intentionally". I get LW mods are full of Good Intentions®, and for the sake of some idyllic vision of pacifism, where tyrants will magically stop being tyrants if you say them "tyranny bad! EDIT WOW THANKS FOR THE GOLD, KIND STRANGER!". However Hell is full of good intentions.

I mean, in fairness, Thomas Jefferson was a big advocate for violence. As far as he was concerned, if someone was infringing on your rights, the answer was to get some friends with some rifles and go to work.
- Who do we need to be fair to? Nazi sympathizers?
  That aside, does that mean libraries in NL aren’t allowed to carry books that quote Thomas Jefferson? I doubt they have any risk of law enforcement beating their doors down over that…
  
  I'm not agreeing with the mods, I haven't even looked into the details. I'm pretty sure it is legal to advocate violence in books (or, for that matter, on the internet), it's just that in the weird quasi-legal regulatory space that is moderated forums it is a universal no no.
  I'm just saying that if the mods are accusing Thomas Jefferson quotes of advocating violence, they are probably right, because he was a big and unapologetic advocate of violence in some circumstances.
  
  who shoukd we be fair to? nazis?
  Yep. And nobody else. To do otherwise would be illiberal and amtisemitic and communist.
- based.
- I mean, for him specifically...
  the answer was to get some friends with some rifles and have them go to work.
  
  He was in the Virginia militia for 9 years. IDK how much actual fighting he did, he started out as a colonel so maybe not much, but he was in the military.

PTB
Time to post some quotes
Others I like:
Those who make peaceful protest impossible make violent revolution inevitable.
JFK

Riots are the voice of the unheard
MLK

Reading JL's comments in this thread reminds me of this excellent quote
"A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now."

Well ayy, you beat me to making a PTB post on this, but uh yeah...
.world?
collaborating with and covering for fascists?

People should move to other instances and mods of popular communities should migrate the communities as well.
- happy cake day!

I get that they're ~~US-based and have to follow US laws~~, but man, thats ironic.
Edit: NL/Germany based https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
- I thought they were in NL? Also, quoting Thomas Jefferson is not against the law in the USA.
  
  Shoot, you're right about the jurisdiction. That makes it even dumber. https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
  It can be construed as advocating for violence in this context. Since, ya know, it's obvious who the tyrants are
- Well, that wouldn't violate any US laws even if they were.

I continue to maintain that the best individual policy is to instance-block .world and let the redditor hoi polloi who end up there self-select onto smaller and better instances as they wake up to what a crappy place the default is. If they aren't capable of eventually waking up to that, then I don't really want them in my feed, so .world is a good place for them to be contained.

So they've gone from "we don't have a first amendment so shut up" to "we don't have any ethics so shut up." Cool.

What’s the legal standard in the Netherlands? Anyone know? Seems relevant here.

PTB. Like always for .world lol

Even money says Jordan is involved.

we're talking about quoting the guy who put slaves in secret cupboards and trapdoors under tables and shit right
what's the name of this shitty movement that guy ended up founding anyway? why quote him?

Well duh, its the same group Jefferson fought.

Dude, Jefferson literally advocated for violence. They're not wrong in the slightest with that.
He said people dying in a violent battle (in pursuit of something) is the "natural manure". And killing lots of people is pretty much peak violence.
- Got it, so we're allowed to post news articles on .world discussing facsists advocating for and directly enacting brutal violence... at a grand scale...
  But unspecified, indirect references to the concept of violent resistance, self-defense, on a similar scale... nah, users can't do that.
  You do not see a hypocrisy here?
  A blatant and glaring double standard?
  
  I'm just stating what fact is here. This was an easy question. I certainly hope people report the other calls for violence you mentioned as well. They definitely should.
  But this isn't even the interesting question. I think your question with the double standard is far more interesting. Or whether Jefferson was right. Or if OP could quote him if they were using apostrophes or a bit more clever wording.
- The libs are libbing again

First, not the mod who removed it.
Second, they weren't quoting Jefferson to be quoting Jefferson, they were MANGLING Jefferson so they could make a call for violence.
The full quote:
https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/tree-liberty-quotation/
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
Removed quote:
"The Tree of Liberty needs watered from the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time. I fear we are there."
Saying "I fear we are there" is a direct call to violence, it's not in the OG quote and that's why it got removed.
- Saying “I fear we are there” is a direct call to violence
  No it's not.
  
  The mod who removed it disagreed, I also disagree and would have removed it as well.
  When ascertaining a threat, agencies use "immenence" as a primary marker. So saying something like "Hey, every now and then we need to guillotine these bastards." Is fine.
  Saying "Hey, every now and then we need to guillotine these bastards, how does Tuesday sound, does Tuesday work for you?" has a level of immenence that the first statement lacks.
  The call to action is shedding blood, immediately. That's removable.
  
  it can be interpreted as such, I could say the same about those numbers people associate with Nazism
- Did the removed quote use quotation marks to indicate where the quote ended and the personal thoughts of OP began?
  Because there is a considerable difference in intent depending on where quotation marks are used.
  Similarly, it's the difference capitalization makes between "helping your uncle Jack off a horse" and bestiality.
  No offense, but it feels like OPs comment was removed because you considered it bestiality / a call to violence, when it very likely was just a poor usage of grammar.
  
  I pasted the removed quote from the modlog and added the quotes around it to make it clear I was quoting it, the original removed comment had no quote marks at all.

well do you want to do what's in the quote or not?
are you advocating for what's described in the quote or not?
- Completely irrelevant. Learn nuance and learn the standard for removal is calls to violence, not saying violence is sometimes necessary to effect change...

Sadly, we have rules we must follow as well.
The rule in this case is a site-wide rule:
https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#1-attacks-on-people-or-groups
Before using the website, remember you will be interacting with actual, real people and communities. Lemmy.World is not a place for you to attack other people or groups of people. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't give you the right to harass them. Discuss ideas and be critical of principles. Show the respect you desire to receive.
We do not tolerate serious threats or calls for violence.
- Thank you for checking in, your attention is noticed and appreciated (really!). I will start by acknowledging my heavy snark. To address your point: Which group of people was seriously targeted by threats or calls to violence by the Benjamin Franklin quote?
  
  I can't say, as I wasn't a part of the action. I'm at the hospital with my kid right now, but when I have time, I'll dig further
  A rule of thumb: message the top mod (first person on the mod list) when you have a problem.
  Everybody else defers to them, and we tend to not override them, as moderator powers trickle down - meaning if you look at the list, the person at the top can remove all those under them.
  If you see a top mod abusing their power, go to the instance home page, and on the right, you can see the admins. They have god tier power, and can right wrongs mods can't.
- We do not tolerate serious threats or calls for violence.
  Are you saying that famous quotes are a serious threat or call for violence?
  
  If the quote is a call to violence? I'd say yes.

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