It's Breathtaking How Fast AI Is Screwing Up the Education System
Thanks to a new breed of chatbots, American stupidity is escalating at an advanced pace.
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NGL, it’s really f*cking depressing when you give students 30m to create something of their own imagination, and they do it in the first minute with chatGPT and spend the other 29m playing games the phone and asking to “go to the bathroom” whenever they notice someone in the hallway.
The excuses you hear when you do something so oppressive as to request they keep their phones in their own backpacks for the duration of the task.
I regularly advocate for banning phones from schools but people here in Lemmy (same on Reddit years ago) completely lose their shit with that idea, start talking how that'll leave them defenseless in an emergency, how it is torture, how they absolutely can't live without them
Not thirty years ago nobody had cellphones in school, they barely existed, and everything was fine, everyone was fine without and with cellphones I see so much shit going on. Yes, it's the Future, kids need cellphones, but they also need to learn to be without cellphone, and they need to learn responsible use.
honestly a few years ago I didn't agree with it, but now things are enshittifying so much that it really seems to be the better option now. it'll unfortunately bar even those from using their phones who would use it for other things than mindless scrolling, using ai chatbots and playing microtransaction and ad filled games, but for the whole class and the whole generation it would be better in the end.
Which age were you when you didn't agree and what age are you now? I also this changes drastically as a teen I wouldn't see why it would be bad but nowadays I do (while also everything just got worse and worse, not to glory my time was any better)
Which age were you when you didn't agree and what age are you now?
yeah, that's the reason I probably changed my mind, because it was not too long ago that I would fall under such a restriction, and I remember thinking about schools that do this that it is unfair, and wouldn't have wanted to be in such a school.
To me the point is a simple question: why are you at school?
Unless the class is explicitly to teach you how to use your phone responsibly, nobody should have a phone in school. Any arguments I've heard against that always boil down to "but I wannah doom scroohooollll" or some variation of that
Outright banning them from schools is wrong imo, but if I had to put my phone in a locked box every class, I would've lived. I just think banning them outright is bad for needing to contact parents, especially for kids like me who had after school activities often.
My only issue I had with HS teachers were the ones who bitched about people having headphones/earbuds in during class. Obviously I don't have them in during instruction or group work as that would be disrespectful, but if you're not at the front of the room talking and we're doing individual work, I want to have my earbuds in. I had a study block teacher who was so fucking anal about phones and earbuds, when it is literally a fucking break class to do whatever the fuck you want/need to do.
I just really like having music or background noise while doing work.
EDIT: God this blew up.
Well first off, I DEFINITELY remember not being able to contact my parents while at elementary school because they had out state phone numbers, so unless they were at home, I literally couldn't contact them. Furthermore, if teachers get angry at kids simply going to the bathroom, you think they're going to let us ask them to call our parents? Hell no.
Also, how is putting earbuds in while someone ISN'T teaching disrespectful? If you're not lecturing at the moment, then I'm putting my earbuds in. I don't always need them to get work done, but I prefer to. It's especially great if the class is being noisy, as I can put my music on to drown out the outside conversations. There are 30+ year old people who didn't have phones growing up that like to play music while working.
Please remember, most of those who oppose the introduction of phones to schools are part of the gen who decided to introduce them to us and bought the damn phones for the kids.
My only issue I had with HS teachers were the ones who bitched about people having headphones/earbuds in during class. Obviously I don't have them in during instruction or group work as that would be disrespectful, but if you're not at the front of the room talking and we're doing individual work, I want to have my earbuds in. I had a study block teacher who was so fucking anal about phones and earbuds, when it is literally a fucking break class to do whatever the fuck you want/need to do.
I actually agree with this. If I have kids doing individual work in my class, I could care less if they’re using their phones or have headphones in as long as 1) they’re working, and 2) they’re willing to put it aside when I need their attention again. I’m actually much more productive with music on, so who am I to judge?
who am I to judge?
You're the teacher?
I know that kids may want / like to do something their way, but how about you learn it the normal way too? You can do your home work at home with music, I did that too, that's fine, but in class you pay attention
Again, if they’re doing individual work with headphones in, and they’re clearly being productive, I don’t see a problem with it. If they’re doing it while I’m actively trying to teach, that would be a problem.
Many middle schoolers I work with have an ear bud in at all times, and as an ESL teacher my population of kids really needs to practice processing spoken English without that as a distraction. Hell, that applies to every kid.... This isn't an issue of somebody listening to music in the hallway or while studying, this is during class, during lecture, during group work, while writing essays, while reading...
I just think banning them outright is bad for needing to contact parents, especially for kids like me who had after school activities often.
Ok, well that's completely ridiculous.
Look, 25 years ago nobody had cell phones in school. Kids had just as many after school activities, this wasn't a problem. It was sometimes inconvenient, but not a problem. It's also worth remembering, many rooms in every high school have phones, you'll be able to use one if you need to.
I get wanting to have your phone throughout the day, I do. But on the other hand... no.
many rooms in every high school have phones
You mean like landlines teachers had at their desks?
I suppose that's fair.
Survivorship bias and privilege. We never had phones in our classrooms.
Yes indeed. You should ask your parents about the aunts and uncles you would have had if only smartphones had been invented 2 decades earlier. I am sure they will have tons of stories to tell /s.
I'm kind of amazed with reading this, really.
No, kids don't need phones. Do you think that after school activities didn't exist thirty years ago? They did and omg, nobody had cell phones so yeah, so ma y kids disappeared and died because of that and of course nothing like that happened because you plan that stuff ahead and worst case, a student can ask the teacher or some central ooi t where all cellphones are kept to make a quick important call.
Same thing also goes for head sets. How the heck do you think we did that thirty years ago? Hint: we simply didn't because it wasn't a thing, it didn't exist. Walkmans barely came into existence and you could wear one outside class, all fine, but I side classes you're there to learn, not to listen to your favorite music or podcast or influencers.
Id I'd have to allow headsets in class I'd refuse to teach. I'm not there to dick around or wsste my time, I'm there to teach and you're there to learn, not to play or dick around
I worked in a school in Asia that actually banned students from bringing their phones to school. One year there was an earthquake in the morning that caused all the trains to stop for half a day while they checked the rails. We were all on our way to the school, got stranded, and some had to walk for hours to get back home. The school got a few calls from parents and the policy was changed the very next week. Now students can bring their phones, but they need to be turned in at the front office when they arrive.
One girl forgot to do it once, so she put her phone her locker. Another earthquake set off the warning alarm system and her phone went off in the hallway. Later that day I saw her getting lectured hard by the staff and the poor thing was in tears. She was actually a good student, so it was weird seeing her in that scenario.
Anyway, I wouldn’t mind the idea of students handing in phones at the front desk, but I was allowed to pack a cd player, a Nokia, and a variety of other devices around my school as a kid. I don’t really see smartphones as being much different, so I don’t mind them being around just so long as students are using them in their own time.
I mean, I was in high school when the cell phones were largely flip phones and that one nokia brick that could probably survive being run over by a tank and at that point the rule was "nobody gives a shit if it's in your pocket/in your bag and on silent, but if I see it or if it's making loud disruptive noises from wherever you've got it it's going in my desk until the bell rings". That still seems a reasonable middle ground in my opinion. That way, it's still accessible enough in the event of an actual emergency but not usable otherwise.
Yeah, that was back when a single person had a cell phone it was a wow thing. Now everyone has it, and the addiction and doom scrolling is real. Kids will have a headset in during class.
Nope, all of it, out. Leave it in your locker, store it at a single special place, whatever, but not in class
Plenty of schools do that
Phones totally need to be reeled in. Stop making a Do it all device. Self discipline and responsibility have been guard railed for years. This 100 percent.
I mean, you could probably solve this shit by restricting the types of phones used to dumb phones. Phones only capable of texting and calls. Perhaps some basic access to school websites and Wikipedia too. Everything else default blacklisted.
That is just no phones with extra steps
Just leave the damn thing in a special storage at the start of your school day, or in your locker. During lunch you pick it up, and when you leave you take it with you
but people here in Lemmy (same on Reddit years ago) completely lose their shit with that idea
I've practically never seen anyone over 19 who was opposed to this idea. It's obviously the right move. Phones don't belong in school.
If you want to get all fussy about the "danger" of being without a phone, they can be allowed to keep it in their lockers until the last bell rings. There's literally no down side to this and a whole lot of up sides.
This is survivorship bias. Many weren't fine but you don't get to hear from them today.
Lol… yes my classmates died en masse.
I was uninterested in school because nothing was ever done to make me interested, even at home.
Later in life I was diagnosed with ADHD and now I’m a software developer. Sadly school isn’t for everybody and I just thought I was stupid and lazy, it turns out I was fine I just needed the right help.
Edit: Votes don’t matter but I’d love to know the reasoning for the 5 downvotes on this. Like why don’t you put across your opposition.
Well it's not like you had a choice in the matter and that's why they don't care how interested you are. You and the rest of your batch just need to sit still for an hour and a half until you get a break walking to the next boredom session.
I find it quite incredible that I spent 14 years of 40 hours weeks listening to people talk about stuff I did not care about under the assumption that if I didn't I'd end up homeless so they never tried to make me care.
Fortunately we had a computer at home to learn about the stuff I actually cared about.
I find it crushing that they're still making students sit and listen about this boring useless shit when they can just ask their phones about whatever they'd be trying to do if they weren't listening to a course plan from the 1800s about completely obsolete and irrelevant things.
How can this incredibly important phase of life be so hopelessly poisoned by school for absolutely no reasons at all.
I like to keep a positive mindset on things and although I believe I was failed by the education system, ADHD wasn’t as known back then so to them I was just an easily distracted comedian with no desire to learn, except in maths I would ask for homework as I was alright and it was relaxing and I suppose subconsciously I didn’t feel like a failure here. Again they didn’t really help me nurture that desire.
What I like to keep positive about is that the teacher is powerless to do anything and they just need to teach the most about of people as possible without letting the disruptive kids take time away from the ones who are better at school.
My issue is with the education system for the masses and cynic in me doesn’t believe that systems wants everybody to reach their potential, it’s just to get you used to routine and to allow your parents to be slaves to capitalism. If it was about potential then teachers would be paid more and we would have class sizes similar to private schools (those where you pay obscene amounts) where the teacher can individualise the education.
Chris Crawford was talking about this problem in 1992 and we still haven't learned anything
The Dragon Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBrj4S24074
I couldn't find a transcription, and it covers a lot more than education, but it's a good speech. The relevant part starts at ~12:45
Thanks I'll check that out
For me it is
"Do schools kill creativity? | Sir Ken Robinson | TED"
which is the first result if you search youtube for "ted talk education"
He doesn't really have a solution of mass manufactured education but he does highlight the problem real good
Actually, someone made a drawing version of this talk and it's really good
awesome, I'll check that out
The "boring useless shit" your talking about is that stuff that teaches people not to repeat dumb ass decisions. The stuff like social studies tells us WHY things are the way they are. The fact that there are people in the US that are cheering for taxation without representation is EXACTLY why we need those boring classes and why you should have to sit through them until you fucking get it. Unfortunately we've let too many through under the guise of no one left behind that we've crwate a couple of generations of complete and utter morons. Morons that stack with lead poisoned and aging geriatrics with dementia. And now we have Trump. Trump is what you get when you ignore everything else in favor of only those things you find interesting or easy.
I understand very well what you mean and what the goal is, the problem is that it just doesn't reflect the reality of what was happening in school. For fuck's sake, not a single class in the entire duration explained how to do taxes or fix your car. It was all the most tepid and diluted of learning, thank fuck I had the internet to learn about the world because there was very little of that going on at school.
I really don't know how it was even possible that so much filler, never ending school slop as appetizing as what they served at the cafeteria.
But really that's not the worse of it, no, even thought it was VERY bad, the worse was the total suppression of agency, the lack of relevance, taking absolutely for granted that we could not escape and so there was never any need to even tell us what we're going to learn or why or have any choices.
Every single day started with waking up too early, bussing around for an hour and then enduring this torture that would not even end one fucking minute at a time. I have a hard time even imagining how it used to be back then. If I had known how bad it was going to be I would have probably killed myself to save myself from this hellish horror. At least real physical torture wouldn't have been so hopelessly boring.
Ngl. I bought a signal jammer for my wife to use in her classroom (after all, it said “for educational purposes only”) and the kids could never figure out why the signal sucked so bad in her classroom during class times. She never got caught using it and never had to worry about them being on their phones.
If there was an emergency, people would just call the front office and they could always reach her on the land line in the classroom.
(after all, it said “for educational purposes only”)
The FCC hates this one simple trick
Violating federal laws is awesome, everyone should do it.
If it’s good enough for the President! /s
"Removed by mod" haha
Fuck YES (says a middle school teacher)
One proposed Florida law I actually agree with is: phones off during school - all of school, including between classes and recess. Possible exception for lunchtime. Definite exception for when the teacher is specifically using the phones as a fully engaged teaching tool, which should be no more than 20% of overall classroom time, but definitely could be used as a way to "grab attention."
I get wanting to be able to track little Ginny and make sure she got to school O.K. and know when to go meet the bus to pick her up.
There should definitely be "Cybersafety" education in our schools, and the phone as a teaching tool definitely makes sense there.
Having AI write the first draft of your assignment can be a good lesson too, but the remaining 28 minutes should be spent understanding and refining what the AI has given you.
Can't you just make them turn off the computers/phones and do it by hand?
This gives me flashbacks. I had to take Java exams with pen and paper. They took 6+ hours. The reason? Not enough computers for everyone and our teacher wasn't willing to make 2 different exams, like every other fucking teacher does.
When I need them to, I do, but then suddenly everyone starts needing to go to the bathroom way more frequently.
I can't imagine dealing with a room full of kids, especially ones with phone addictions.
Well it’s better than them throwing things at each other like we used to do, I suppose.
If your school is not supporting teachers with a cell phone policy you should try to find another place to teach and tell them exactly why when you leave.
Edit: this is also something your union should be pushing for. I'm surprised parents haven't demanded it.
I don’t care that much. I live on an island and most of my “students” are actually just tourists pretending they’re there for educational purposes.
It's really fucking depressing
Well yes, and it’s a tourism based economy, which means I usually don’t have to deal with any particular group for longer than a few weeks. Some groups are loads of fun and don’t have any problems with their phones. It usually just depends on which part of wherever they’re coming from, and how life is like for them back home.
Is there not a way to plan the assignment so that it's not doable in 1m with ChatGPT?
• Require students to cite their sources
• Require students to show their working
• Ask students questions related to the process of a given task during class
• For things like media analysis, require them to do it with a pencil and paper without the use of computers where possible
• Treat the use of LLMs as an act of academic plagiarism
All of these are things that schools should already be doing holy shit
Yes, this absolutely. It should have always been like this but there is no other option now with AI.
Only thing I disagree with is using LLMs - if anything they should make that mandatory now because it's going to be totally integrated in the future and they're going to need to get used to using it. BUT grading should be 1000% more stringent on getting facts right and specifically looking for things that LLMs get wrong.
AND all that to say - using your list and other methods to show student knowledge/undertanding should avoid any possibility of being able to complete a task with AI alone.
It’s possible, but it takes time and effort to prepare, and I’m not getting paid at home, so I’m reluctant to do it.
You could offer the students a choice: no AI and a 5 slide presentation, or allow AI but with a 15 slide presentation, then let them decide. AI makes work more efficient for us, so if we can be 3x more productive, I should expect 3x more product.
I taught an ESL group once. One of the girls, around 15-17, plastered a bunch of ChatGPT text on the slide and sat the whole period on her phone. When it was her group’s turn, she quickly realized the position she put herself in as she was now in at the front of the class trying to sound out a wall of high-level English words she’d never heard before. I gave her the standard score because, even though she failed the task, she tried really hard to read out all those difficult words and I thought that was probably more work than anyone else had done.
I gave her the standard score because, even though she failed the task, she tried really hard to read out all those difficult words and I thought that was probably more work than anyone else had done.
That is a tragic indictment on the state of your class. You are failing your students by refusing to give them failing marks for this shit.
I think she learned the lesson on her own on that one. No need to rub salt on the wound.
Furthermore, at their level, they already assume that they’re hopeless. I don’t want to reinforce that idea and discourage them from reproaching the subject later on. We’re talking about a lower vs mid elementary proficiency rating here, so no one’s life is changing.
I don't understand how you are not paid for planning time. Without providing that the school just makes their teachers glorified babysitters.
Yep. I totally agree. Hopefully I’ll find a school that does pay me for planning time eventually,
Dunno Yeah I disagree with AI. I grew up without phones but they should not be used in schools.
I actually sometimes ask my students to use their phones to produce presentations and such (AI permitted). I just think the rule needs to be no phones in sight otherwise, and the phone stays if you go to the bathroom.
Right on. Your opinion is better than mine. I’m not a school teacher.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say my opinion is better than anyone else’s, it just an experience that suits the context of the life I’m living now. There are definitely schools out there where the learning culture probably couldn’t handle it.
You gave them a task, they used their imagination to apply it, in a different way than you expected, by using a new tool which is a non traditional method you asked for but the task still got completed. They still loosely completed the task 30 times ahead of schedule by using their imagination on how to constructively solve your problem, utilizing a tool in their imaginary bag.
I don't think it's wrecking the system as long as the LLMs could be trained and ensure strict accuracy (yes I know they can be inaccurate but again so is any tool in its infancy), the system fails people everyday as a whole. I think it's changing the traditional paradigm. Maybe for the better, maybe not. Time will tell. I think ChatGPT is a tool in its infancy. It's changing the way minds think fundamentally like for isntance critical thinking skills decline by relying on "AI" but it frees up the mind to grow in other ways to adjust to the new paradigm.
I think the true point here is fear from breaking traditional values. Humans have never accelerated faster with current technology thats with or without LLM usage.
Holy fuck, we are so cooked.
This is such a concavebrained take. The point of exercises handed out in schools isn't the accomplishment of the set tasks; it's that students internalise the processes necessary to do the task themselves and thereby learn those skills.
Thus, giving away a task to a LLM is only "using their imagination on how to constructively solve the problem, utilising a tool in their imaginary bag" in the same way that bullying a nerd into doing the work for them used to be.
I think it's changing the traditional paradigm. Maybe for the better, maybe not. Time will tell. I think ChatGPT is a tool in its infancy. It's changing the way minds think fundamentally like for isntance critical thinking skills decline by relying on "AI" but it frees up the mind to grow in other ways to adjust to the new paradigm.
This is so obviously for the worse. Losing the ability to think critically isn't "freeing up the mind to grow in other ways:" basic critical thought is a foundational prerequisite to fully developing as a person capable of participating in society in the current age in much the same way as basic literacy is. It's limiting the mind from growing in any meaningful way.
And don't get it twisted, you're just saying this shit to be contrarian. I doubt you actually believe this development could be a good thing. Like come the fuck on, let's say in ten years' time you get into some kinda accident and need surgery. There is no way you'd would want your surgeon to be someone who 'did' most of their assessments in med school with a fucking chatbot. Who are you kidding???
You’re not wrong, but the difference is that they came up with a creative solution to avoid the task, not a creative solution to engage the task. If I ask them follow up questions to explain their thoughts and reasoning behind their own work, I get deer in the headlights.
Now, I think the tide is rising with AI and it’s sink or swim if you’re a teacher, so it’s better to just learn what AI is and how to leverage it no matter what people think of it, or if I’m even getting paid for my effort.
A different approach I’m considering is embracing AI for teenage groups and changing the format of the course entirely so there’s more interaction (incorporating AI) than production. I’ll be the first at my school to do it, but I’m also the only person there who could tell you what the fediverse is.
Maybe it was a task they considered shitty and uninteresting. Not trying to be insulting but a lot of teachers have this problem. They assign a task they think will be interesting and captivating to their students only to be disappointed or irritated that their students didnt find it nearly as interesting or fun as the teacher did. You want them to pay attention make it real and relevant to them. That last part being especially important.
Do you have a suggestion?
Now I get that 100 percent. Avoiding the task makes total sense, especially coming from students of all ages. I absolutely think critical thinking skills are foundational to understanding and knowledge and need to be practiced, learned so much more than they are.
I think rather than free range use of LLMs or any other tool there needs to be some guidance. I don't think clogging the system with dumb laws will do it, and I certainly don't have all the answers. But with the usage of GPT if it can be made explicitly accurate within reason, one can gain knowledge at an accelerated rate due to the speed it can process vast data.
Its awesome to see teachers, educators trying to evolve and improve the learning experience which we desperately need. So thanks for putting in the extra effort whether your rewarded or not financially. The real people the got failed, or generally care thank you for your efforts!
Thanks. It’s motivating to hear that.
Educators are the future for us all. Knowledge and how to apply it is everything even more so the faster humanity accelerates.
I think it sucks your care and compassion isn't financially rewarded from a school level but the effort, care, and value of going the extra mile always gets noticed/remembered and should be rightfully encouraged and appreciated. Respect.
*We all know these hellion kids are a handful to deal with 😂
Because school is boring, that's why.
Most people don't need to learn beyond the fourth grade, especially because calculators and now GPT exist for instant answers.
And I say this as someone who wasted his time all the way up to a Master's degree just to show society I too followed the beaten path. It's time I'll never get back.
Good god, if you went through an entire education and don't realize how fucked of a take that is I don't know what to say. Go try again at a different school maybe?
It's not a take, it's how children (and adults, frankly) feel about school. It's not great at making you a capable adult.
Do you know how useful my two diplomas were to get a job? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. None of the theories I learned were useful, neither on the job nor for their own sake.
As for middle school, exactly what did you learn that you think is so useful for daily life? I'd happily replace learning "how to discover x in n dimensions" with basic financial literacy, for example.
The latter years of the school system are quite literally a waste of time. The useful stuff you learn before high school.
As for middle school, exactly what did you learn that you think is so useful for daily life?
Off the top of my head: basic biology so I'm not dumb enough to be antivax. History subjects that require more than elementary maturity so maybe we can avoid another Holocaust. Enough physics, ecology and chemistry that I can comprehend how climate change is happening. How basic statistics work so I'm not completely lost when someone throws around misleading data.
None of that is automatic from a 4th grade education and is crucial to be a functioning citizen. Learning to take unquestioned GPT answers is not a substitute for actually learning any of those.
You either went to a painfully bad pipeline of schools or were too dumb to recognize the important parts.
Holy shit, thank you, finally someone in this thread is still living in the same reality as I am.
I've been to 7 different schools and the answer is horrible pipe lines. But the true answer isn't so black and white. It'd largely dependant on area, class, state and local Govts. School fails people everyday, the govt and its systems fail people everyday, medical fails people everyday etc. Systems are not perfect they just allowed humans to organize. Subsequently also disorganize too by adding too many layers.
You're right, I was too hyperbolic when I said 4th grade was enough. Biology was indeed useful and so was history. Likewise, learning a second language from 5th grade was crucial for the conversation we're having right now.
Still, I'd put the usefulness "cut off" point at 9th grade or so.
On a side note, I know people who did the whole of university with me who today are anti-vaxers. I know IT BSc graduates who think Trump totally isn't yet another fascist dictator, and I know a doctor who believes name brand ivermectin cures cancer.
Turns out more education isn't necessarily related to coming out the other side of the pipeline not being any of the things you mentioned. It's maddening.
Lmao. You think kids are going to be any more interested and pay more attention in a financial literacy course than they are about arbitrary math problems. I have some bad news for you about finance. It's full of math.
Except that personal finance (which of what I'm referring to) is mostly arithmetic, while high school (and a good chunk of middle school) math is mostly algebra.
The moment letters come into the equation (no pun intended) is when you start to lose me. And its usefulness on a day-to-day basis.
Sorry but financial literacy requires more than 5+5. And if you can't understand the concept of a variable there are more problems then the course work here.
It took all of school to help me realize what kind of person I wanted to be, and more importantly, what kind of person I didn’t. It seems it had the same effect for you, albeit a much different outcome. I changed my major two times and was in university a couple years longer than most. It was wasteful for sure, but it directed me down the path that eventually led me to my current career and meeting the wonderful woman who became my wife. My studies don’t really apply to anything I do, but I know they’ve enriched me as a human being.
Just because you didn’t find a use for math in your life doesn’t mean nobody else does either.
