1y ago

It's called attaining divinity

109 comments

I have programmed by looking up op codes in a table on a sheet of paper and entering the hex codes into an EPROM programmer.
- Did this in university in the very first week, quite a few people dropped out after that 😅
  
  Ah yes, the great filter
- You are.... Old?
  
  Fucking ancient. This was for a Z80 based system using discreet logic for addressing and IO, constructed on a wire-wrapped board.
- If you want some modern day fun with this, try the Zachtronics programming games; TIS-100, Shenzhen I/O, and Exapunks.
  Or, my personal favorite I only discovered somewhat recently, try Turing Complete. You start by designing all your logic gates from just a negate gate IIRC. You eventually build up an ALU and everything else you need and then create your own computer. Then you define your own assembly language and have to write programs in your assembly language that run on the computer you've designed to complete different tasks. It's a highly underrated game, although it takes a certain type of person to enjoy.
  
  Another interesting low-level interpreter/emulated system to look into for anyone else trying to get started with this type of thing is the CHIP-8! It's a pretty basic 8/16-bit instruction set (there are 35 opcodes, the instructions themselves are mostly simple) and there are tons of detailed guides on making one and writing roms for them.
  
  Turing Complete looks really interesting! How polished is it? Just looked it up and saw it was in early access
- Ah, memories. That was me on a Spectrum. It's all fun and games until you forget to save (to tape) and your code hangs the machine, losing everything.
- Did the same in school on a Z80
- When I was young, we didn't have hex codes, we only had 1 and 0s. One time we where all out of 1s, and I had to code a whole Database system with only 0s!
- Same, and also for the C64 :-)
- You're a god amongst men around these parts.

I once knew somebody who supposedly thought that ASM was high level.
- ASM is high level. Real programmers use punch cards
  
  Real programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand.
  
  Once met a man who said he loved assembly language because it was so much nicer than punch cards and FORTRAN, but C was OK too.
  This was last year. In his defense though, he's been retired for years, used to work as a professor.
- Wait until you learn about micro ops and processor internals. That somebody isn't as wrong as you think.
  
  There is no way ASM is high level
- I would argue they don't know what that means really. Assembly is pretty much a mapping of words to machine code. It's just a way to make machine code easier to read. It doesn't actually change how it works.
  A compiler re-arranges and modifies things so what you write isn't the same as the final program that is created. With assembly it is. It's not really an abstraction, but a translation. It doesn't move you further from the machine, it only makes it so you're speaking the same language.

I am once again asking programmers to explain the joke
- C was originally created as a "high-level" language, being more abstract (aka high-level) than the other languages at the time. But now it's basically considered very slightly more abstract than machine code when compared to the much higher level high-level languages we have today.
  
  Other way around, actually; C was one of several languages proposed to model UNIX without having to write assembly on every line, and has steadily increased in abstraction. Today, C is specified relative to a high-level abstract machine and doesn't really resemble any modern processing units' capabilities.
  Incidentally, coming to understand this is precisely what the OP meme is about.
  
  I'd say much more highly abstracted than necessarily better (I know plenty of people who despise js and wouldn't call it better).
- To add on to @azdle@news.idlestate.org 's comment, "High Level" in terms of programming languages means further away from how the computer processes things and "Low Level" means very similar to how machines process things. For example, binary and hexadecimal (16 bit) machine code such as "assembly language" are both low level.
  Imagine if program interpreters were building blocks, then 6 layers of abstraction would be very tall or higher level.
  
  This is pedantic, but assembly languages get "assembled" to machine code. This is somewhat similar to higher level languages being "compiled," which eventually becomes assembly which gets assembled. The major reason why these are different is because a compiler changes the structure of the code. Assembly is a direct mapping to instructions. It just converts the text into machine code directly, which is why it's easy to go from machine code to assembly but decompiling doesn't give you identical results to the original source code.
  Also, binary and hexadecimal are just different ways to view the same binary data and aren't different things. There is only "machine code" which is a type of binary data but you can view binary with any arbitrary base, though obviously powers of 2 work better.

When I learnt programming (back in early 2000s) the textbook said C is a high level 3rd generation language with 4th gen languages being something higher (I don't remember what examples were given specifically). This is back when the java applets and action script for flash were the hot things. How I miss the days without the world being cursed by JS.
- I think C was 2nd, 3. is Java and Python, 4 SQL and 5th would be some hypothetical AI instruction language?
  
  1st level is direct binary code as was done with punch cards. Assembly language is a 2nd level language. C is a level above, thus it's level 3.
  
  When the gp's book says that C is a third generation language: I would guess the first generation is Fortran and the second generation contains ALGOL and BCPL. C was heavily influenced by BCPL. (get it? C comes after B)
  
  SQL has been around since the 1970s
- Java applets and flash were an absolute security nightmare of the highest degree.
  You were just running applications on your computer.
  If you had to download and run an application on your computer to view a website now people would lose their minds (and rightly so)

I mean, C is a high level language? Now, sure, C isn't a super expressive language and every C statement compiles to very few assembly instructions comparatively speaking, but it has a whole lot of stuff that assembly doesn't have. Like nice loops and other control structures and such, and not worry about which processor registers are used.
- Guess what, assembly is also a high level language, lol.

But quiche is tasty!

C was always a high level language for me? As soon as I knew it existed at least.

I guess this is what gen z programmers making memes look like

In the modern world it's completely subjective.
The lowest-level language is probably ASM/machine code, as many people at least edit that regularly, and the highest-level would be LLMs. They are the shittiest way to program, yes, but technically you just enter instructions and the LLM outputs eg. Python, which is then compiled to bytecode and run. Similar to how eg. Java works. And that's the subjective part; many people (me included) don't use LLMs as the only way to program, or only use them for convenience and some help, therefore the highest level language is probably either some drag-and-drop UI stuff (like scratch), or Python/JS. And the lowest level is either C/C++ (because "no one uses ASM anyway"), or straight up machine code.

109 comments