Tried Andor after taking a break from Star Wars and realized that the galaxy where politics is determined by magic laser sword people now wants to be serious.
Tried Andor after taking a break from Star Wars and realized that the galaxy where politics is determined by magic laser sword people now wants to be serious.
I remember when discussing Rogue One with my mother (who is not a big Star Wars fan), I mentioned that many felt it was out of place in the series, because it was unusually dark. To which my mother opined that the series was always dark.
In discussing it, it... honestly is. We fans sometimes overlook it, because the Original Trilogy is so triumphant in tone and grand in scale, and the Prequel Trilogy is... plagued with other problems... but Star Wars is dark in a way that original fairy tales are dark.
44It's only eye revealing if you literally aren't paying attention. Vader straight up chokes and breaks the neck of an officer, killing him, that he's interrogating on the rebel blockade runner in the first 10 minutes. Stormtroopers destroy and burn uncle owens farm and leaves his and his wife's corpses out in the open after burning them down to the skeletons. Han shooting first, Alderran is genocided by the death star, princess Leia is tortured, albeit it off screen, we get the scene of the interrogation droid with all his "toys" floating towards her before the door closes. All the pilots die including lukes best friend biggs fighting the death star except wedge luke and a few y wings, It's never been a "kids" story till arguably the prequels when Lucas secured rights to toys and went on to push story elements that could be made into toys to sell.
21But even the prequels are speaking directly to Lucas's feelings about Bush-era politics and the erosion of democracy, where the originals straight up talked about Nam and WWII. Idk, I guess I could understand the Andor hate if I hadn't had a lot of years of people trying to make Star Wars be about the space swords. No cohesive plot, no commentary, no thought provocation, just one cool moment with a space sword leading to the next cool moment with a laser gun. Andor was like "hold my beer." So refreshing.
1It's always been a kid's story, they just used to be able to get away with darker stuff a lot of the time, and I miss that in a lot of modern kid/family media. There's still stuff for adults, but it feels like a lot of darker themes are toned down, though there's some exceptions Steven Universe having themed of rape and abuse with Lapis and Jasper, or the few kids action shows/movies that still have characters die, even if they're just goons. It's not like all kids media sucks now or anything, it's just harder to get away with rougher themes and more action without getting a PG-13/TV-14 rating
1
What don't get is why people think something like star wars can't have different tones. It's a big universe with a big story. Just because the originals were these scifi epics doesn't mean a different story set in the universe can't be grounded and dark. Like how 40k can be really goofy and stupid but also really serious and gritty. It depends on the specific story being told within the setting. Not the setting as a whole
41What don’t get is why people think something like star wars can’t have different tones
It has laser swords that's why
-6And 40k has fungus space orcs that speak in cockney accents and have the power of belief. And yet still manages to have both really goofy stories, and very serious stories. The Ahriman Omnibus being a really serious story, and the infinite and the divine being a goofy story. Both being within the same universe, but two entirely different tones
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I dig your point and that's very fair.
But I'd also propose the following, if there were an honest young children's show, think Blue's Clues, but in the 40k universe, what would your reaction be beyond laughter? It seems just like such a weird choice, why play in that universe if you're not going to talk about any of the madness that makes it 40k.
I dunno, it feels like we're taking an all ages adventure and trying to make it like everything else.
-19As a whole, the first 6 movies follow a gradual tonal shift. Phantom Menace is goofy as hell because it's the start of the adventure, when everyone thought the galaxy was a little more innocent. It gradually gets darker through 2 and 3, goes up an down with 4 and 5, before ending on a high note. Each movie explores different emotions, and represent the growth of the characters and the audience.
1
Andor is probably the best star wars they've done. It has flaws, but it's so much better than Obi-Wan and Ashoka.
33To each their own!
I think the first Mandalorian struck a beautiful balance of silly, fun and blending familiar terrain in a new way.
Andor, I get that people love a more grounded/real/mature show, I just find that a complete tonal mismatch for the Star Wars universe. If I want something gritty and real, there are many quality choices that don't have laser sword people or tech with insane gaps. Just much harder to suspend my disbelief for a gritty show and a grounded show that requires that suspension feels like cheating.
But that's just me, like I say, to each their own! It works for some people
-4Andor is hardly gritty, it just doesn't have light sabers. It does feature competent writing and characters that do things based on their characterization. The empire is largely competent, and nothing really destroyed the timeline set in the movies. It's more than hey member Vader, member Anakin is Vader.
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The best part of Andor is that we know nothing any of them do will ever have any impact at all.
24Just like the rest of us!
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It is just more a function of having to explain more because there is more to explain. The original trilogy feels lived in, but they only explain a small part of it because they don't have to. Eventually, you get enough world building that you have to start explaining the smaller bits.
And since the Star Wars universe has more stories including those with non-Jedi, it means having to create smaller enemies that the heroes can fight against.
12Star Wars is one of those situations where it gets worse the more you learn about it. The original trilogy set off a trend but we see where it's now at. Kind of like watching Lost.
2I dig world building my specific gripe was trying to make a "gritty" or "real" Star Wars. It's a silly, fun adventure trilogy with dwarf bears fighting evil soldiers etc. Making it gritty and real feels very off. I think because sin a silly adventure movie, we understand the suspension of disbelief but in a gritty/real series, a lot of the sillier aspects/choices are much more noticeable.
To each their own, I just find the juxtaposition of silly/fun setting and gritty/real thriller to be too jarring for me personally.
-11It can be both. It's also a world with armored bounty hunters and political stakes, so saying it's only for dwarf space bears is a little disingenuous.
Star Wars is able to encapsulate the inane with themes that struggle with in the real world, only limiting it to just one or the other is antithetical to the very inspirations that it draws from.
With the context of Andor, to make it lighthearted would be a disservice to the deaths of the rebels who made the events of Episode IV possible. Moreover the events and themes from Andor and Rogue One are tonally aligned (would be weird if they weren't). It's one of the few pieces of SW that actually did a strong job connecting three sequential events of a story over 40 years later (coming from someone who enjoys 98% of what we've gotten), I personally think the reason it was able to work was due to the efforts to remove that halo filter of the force. By Andor not having that tonally lighter feeling to it the measure of success has a different sense. There's also the morally grey side of rebellion, which tons of SW games cover but rarely done in canon.
I think for all those reasons it's more than Andor just "trying" to grittify something lighthearted. Rather it's the highlight of a necessary ruthlessness that it can take to bring about rebellion and that successes aren't always light.
That's how I feel anyway, there's a strong tonal theme for each faction of Star Wars and I think rebels not having the same extent of cushioning from the force that the Jedi do makes for a more compelling piece :)
9But I'm saying that the world becomes more gritty because it is getting explored more and it isn't resetting to the status quo.
Star Wars has the journey of a farm kid becoming a laser sword wizard by way of being a fighter pilot.
To explain the MacGuffin of the plans, you now have to explain rebel spies, how the Empire does R&D, and why that flaw exists.
To explain why one of the characters in the prequel became a rebel spy, you know how have to explain how he got radicalized.
There is no way you can keep it a jaunty adventure by drilling that deep.
7
Hopefully Luthen gets his magic laser sword working for season 2
7Sure? (I found the idea kind of silly and joyless so only watched the first couple.)
-2Rofl.
@WhoRoger@lemmy.world & @freamon@lemmy.world I think this wins [SWSW].
3
You weren’t reminded of a disturbed magic space clown every time they said “the emperor” or “papaltine”?
6There's nothing wrong with wanting a fantasy setting to adopt a more adult tone and intention. Having more complex plots and dialogue. I think a of of the people liking Andor are in that category. They want to see Star Wars grow up and put behind the camp and cheery kid show shit.
4I want more Christmas Specials and Ewoks. I want Star Wars to embrace the camp and cheery kid show shit. I am getting so god damn sick of all the dark, super serious stuff across every genre of media that's been trending for over a decade now.
1I’m all for variety. But honestly Marvel got the kids. Let Star Wars shift to the generations that grew up on it so they can get good writing again, and maybe R rated Vader.
1I guess, and this is going to go down as well as most things I've said in this thread, it just seems childish. "I want my childhood stuff to grow up with me and become adult just like me!"
Beyond that, Star Wars is a goofy universe and doesn't super hold up when you try to take it seriously. (They have robots who are inexplicably terrible shots? They can move things at faster than light but only just realized that means you can fly a ship, or even just a cement block with jets, through another? Robots exist and are cheap but human manual labour seems preferable for no discernible reason?) And if you strip away the goofy fun, you're just left with Star Wars minus the Star Wars elements.
There are MANY good sci fi universes where complex plots, moral dilemmas and good dialogue exist. Those universes have been crafted to make it all work.
1
Honestly I was very surprised by the success of Andor, as I really thought the early reviews back when the show only had a couple of episodes really nailed it's with the criticism of the show is slow, boring, and not Star Wars.
It doesn't even pretend to be anything resembling what I know is Star Wars until the Prison Arc and by then I'm too burned out on the terrible Heist to care.
Clearly the show has an audience, I will never understand why, and it's not like I can't handle a show with a slow burn. It's just Andor feels less like a slow burn and more like trying to keep warm with a single match during a blizzard.
1From what I've gathered in this thread these are wrong thoughts so watch out! (Even though I'm inclined to believe you.)
2I was crucified so hard back on Reddit for saying this, that I loaded up Lego star wars, and set up Andor as the P2 character and just kept killing him for twenty minutes.
I don't even hate the show. I just hate all the people trying to Gaslight me into believing that I'm some kind of moron who is incapable of understanding the Brilliance of the show when in reality I understand "Empire Bad" just fine.. and also it's not exactly new information... I merely find it incredibly boring. I don't respect the show enough to hate it.
By that I mean it doesn't stir half emotions within me for me to even bother thinking about it beyond my initial impression.
Meanwhile I can tell you on every level how book of Boba Fett was a grand disappointment that served no purpose outside of assassinating the character of Boba Fett and hyping up the third season to a show that ironically I didn't watch because of how bad book of Boba Fett butchered every character not nicknamed Mando.
As for Andor, it's not even bad.
I don't mean that it's not bad, it's that I can't give an opinion on the show that doesn't also apply to watching paint dry, because that is also defined by the three fundemental remarks slow, boring, and not Star Wars.
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