Do not say we have free speech in Canada
It’s been more than a week since MPP Sarah Jama was booted from the Ontario NDP caucus and censured by the Ontario government for daring to name Israel as an Apartheid state. It’s been more than a week since CUPE Ontario President Fred Hahn agreed to
Freedom of speech or freedom of expression isn't freedom from consequences. Words matter, and they have consequences, and people should consider the consequences of their speech in public.
Agreed. Fuck off with this "we have no free speech" bullshit, substack (and it's freedom of conscience in Canada in the first place, not free speech). All of the things listed are social consequences, not criminal prosecution or some other government persecution. Sarah was booted by her party, not the government, and the rest are employers and universities. If there is fault, it lies with those organizations.
It's also not protected speech, so if there is fault, those organizations will have to suffer social consequences themselves, as it doesn't seem that they broke any laws.
The censured her:
The Doug Ford government has put forward a motion that would censure an Ontario NDP MPP over her comments on the Israel-Gaza war and ask they not be recognized in the legislature until a formal apology is made and a statement on social media is deleted.
The motion calls comments made by Hamilton Centre MPP Sarah Jama last week “antisemitic” and “discriminatory.” If passed, it would call on the Speaker not to recognize Jama in the House “until the Member retracts and deletes her statement on social media and makes an apology in her place in the House.”
So they're trying to completely take away her ability to govern because of her speech. So yes, the government is trying to silence her.
There's a bit of a blurred line when they're members of government or government organizations versus private employers.
A political party IS part of government, even if it's not the political party leading the country. However, a party shouldn't be forced to keep somebody who goes off the rails and is causing them damage. At the same time, those same parties seem to be very pick-and-choose about which "rebellious" members they decide to expel and over what issues
Indeed. And if the NDP won't allow its members to recognize that Israel is an apartheid state, then members who see it as such should abandon the party. Both those serving as public representatives, and regular members and donors.
Asking a genuine question regarding the apartheid terminology here. When someone refers to Israel as a apartheid state with regards to Palestinian civilians it always doesn't make sense to me. Because for that to be true, one needs to consider Gaza and Westbank to be Israeli territory, which I don't think is a concept that anyone who makes this claim agrees with. To me, that's like saying North America is an apartheid continent because Canadians and Mexicans don't get the same rights as Americans in America.
Don't be dense, read the article. The story is not about legality or free speech absolutism. It is about how the window of acceptable political speech in what is considered mainstream has narrowed to a stifling degree.
We don't. This isn't the U.S. with their freedom of speech, where you can say literally anything. We have something called freedom of expression, which does not cover hate speech, and a few other things.
The US doesn't have freedom of speech either... Source: American.
I mean, you do have it codified in your Constitution as its very first amendment. Now, how much is it really protected, in practice...
I just want the word "literally" to be misused less. Learn new adverbs, please.
You missed that bus 15 years ago, bud
I’m pretty sure only Cons try to say we have free speech because they don’t know our laws
Of note though; freedom of speech means freedom from persecution not freedom from consequence
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
So where did they highlight people being put in court over comments and where did they explain that they are aware we don’t have free speech so even someone being in court isn’t a problem?
I agree with many points from the article but I don't think the title choice was good
Therer are people who could be discussing this credibly but a troll like Loreto isn't one of them.
This is exactly why we need to have open and censorship resistant platforms.
We should never celebrate deplatforming people for unpopular or evil opinions, not because we agree with those opinions, but because those tools can and will be used against good causes / us eventually.
The cancelling culture, and rage framework that has existed in the west media is now being turned against "worthy" causes.
I've gotten into many deplatforming is evil, and shouldn't be encouraged/allowed arguments on lemmy - this is exactly why I engage. Do I care about kiwifarms, communists, racists, no.... I do not, but when its time for my voice to be heard above the whargarble of public opinion i need those very same platforms to exist.
The next step would be to legistate that protected free speech should also protect people from employment discrimination and reprisals, but that is probably a discussion for another day.
Today I think the big fight is over saying : Killing civilians is bad, ethnic cleansing is bad, genocide is bad....
We should never celebrate deplatforming people for unpopular or evil opinions
Bullshit, people with evil opinions keep others from expressing themselves, tolerating them means deplatforming others and means they have more space to recruit.
Agreed. The central example is a NDP member being censured by the party for her views. THAT IS WHAT A POLITICAL PARTY IS. She would have also been removed if she started arguing for tax cuts to the wealthy and restrictions on union activity. Even perfectly legitimate political opinions can make you totally unfit to be a representative of a political party. Words have consequences and political parties are social structures with social rules. Cry me a river, this isn't a free-speech issue.
The article points out that those that have been bitching about free speech being suppressed when it's about some bigot spewing fash crap, are uniquely silent when it comes to racialized people speaking out about genocide and apartheid. The "free speech debate", "anti-wokism", "anti-cancelling" etc has never been about lifting the voices of those who are structurally silenced at every turn in this country. It has always been about people that already have privilege being able to punch down with impunity. So fuck that.
I'm here making noise about the silencing of genocide and apartheid.
As an aside, the number of times, this week!, I've had a argument about the dictionary being wrong, and that the definitions are inaccurate, sensational, antisemitic... is laughably high.
Arguing that the dictionary is correct and should be cited as the arbiture of language ignores that language is a fluid, evolving structure. Dictionaries are guides to help seek understanding and seeking to be understood. They're not law by which we must abide.