Kick faces possible $49 M fine after French streamer Jean Pormanove dies on air
Kick faces possible $49M fine after French streamer Jean Pormanove dies on air - Dexerto
$49 M fine? So, basically, legal for a fee?
Yes. I saw a video on getting around Flock's AI cameras and he mentions the numerous million dollar lawsuits that regularly result from misuse of their data and the glitches that cause people to have guns pointed at their heads by police.
It is a cost of doing business. Saying 'I'll sue you!' To them is as threatening as charging someone a little extra for that order of coffee they made.
I mean, Kick probably could be suspending people who stream for an unhealthily long time, maybe suspend his abusive friends, but they didn't force him to take any actions resulting in his death imo.
What exactly is the crime?
cost of doing business, as part of thier budget.
Is it just my ADHD, or did the article completely fail to mention why a streamer was forced by two other streamers to stay awake and ingest poison? Did they hold his family for ransom or something? I need context.
If I understood properly the guy was a kinda homeless person that the two fuckers "hosted" in their house in exchange for participating (being tortured) in their streams. He was disabled or mentally challenged too, and there was another victim of theirs that was handicapped in the flat too.
The alarm has been raised for at least 8 months but neither the police nor the national agencies nor the minister contacted either did or decided to do anything. Every time the police came the victims were saying that all was good and they gave their consent to anything, but on stream they were often asking to call the cops, an ambulance or trying to leave and the two fuckers barred them the exit and threatened to beat them or throw them back to the streets. So they were basically held hostage.
The whole thing is a disgrace. It was the most viewed French language stream on Kick for months, two vulnerable people being tortured on stream and nobody did anything.
It's sort of an extension of lolcow culture. This is a vid I recommend to watch to understand it.
Kinda homeless? The victim is the largest french gaming streamer and definitely not homeless. There's indications of mental health problems but it's only visible on camera. There are no documents verifying it unfortunately (though it seems evident). The two killers are people he's known and hung out with for years.
Edit: The apartment was rented specifically for this stream.
From what I understood the two fuckers will probably get a 25 to 30 years of jail sentence, and some of the people who donated money to them to encourage them in the torture also risk prison time. Which I fucking hope they get.
Someone took upon himself to save all the worst clips and try to raise the alarm, they have more than 300 hours of stream capture with evidence of torture and other wrongdoings.
So all those "red room" legends were true. It's just that instead of being in the dark web, it was broadcast in public for the world to see. How dystopian.
After the whole spiking their own wifes and mothers to pass around for rape online, including with making videos and now this, i am starting to think France has a pretty bad problem with psychopaths and a society that is looking away or even encouraging it rather than stepping in.
There is even a sequence where the two fuckers try to force him to say that "if he dies on stream, it won't be their fault" but the fault of his "shitty health situation". He flat out refused.
They perfectly knew they were in the process of killing him.
His streams were about self deprecation, humiliation and abuse. He let those two guys abuse him to the limit and apparently they went over the limit.
It was with consent but they still be charged with murder and probably get convicted too.
This went on for weeks, months, and nobody interfered. They just gave a platform for the abuse.
Neither it, nor several other articles linked by it have clarified this. Frustrating times.
Black mirror episode IRL.
The title kinda buries the lede there. I thought it was ridiculous to fine a platform just because a streamer happened to die on camera, but no, they were streaming months long abuse and torture of this guy at the hands of his co-streamers.
It is insane how it is even possible to live stream the torture of someone for months without any law enforcement getting involved.
They kinda did. The dudes were taken in as part of an ongoing investigation but were then released. I can see why it’s fared for the cops when even the victims are saying it’s by their own choice. But it’s no excuse for kick.
The investigation, opened in December, is looking into “deliberate violence against vulnerable persons” and “spreading recordings of images related to offences involving deliberate violations of physical integrity,” Martinelli’s statement said. It did not specify why Pormanove could be considered vulnerable.
The statement said two co-streamers allegedly involved in the case were briefly taken into custody in January but were released pending further investigation.
In parallel, the Nice prosecutor said, investigators interviewed Pormanove and one of his co-streamers who both appeared to be victims of violence and humiliation. They “strongly denied being victims of violence, stating that the events were staged in order to `generate a buzz’ and make money.”
It’s all over the place on Facebook and Twitter though. There’s dog fighting, cock fighting, monkey abuse showing up on my Facebook home feed every now and then. This shouldn’t be a surprise really.
It’s similar to fear factor—you can authorize quite a lot of things in a contract.
The medical examiner has said that they don’t think his death was caused directly by the treatment during the stream.
As long as you give a platform to the right wing, laws never apply to you.
If that is the case then I'd like to see how aware they were of what was happening. I'd push for criminal charges against management in that case.
Kick CEO was a top 5 donor to the channel in question. Not only did they know, they actively encouraged it.
OK, but - could he not leave? Or say "i do not want to"? I don't get it
Apparently he tried to but they refused
"Sure you can leave, but this will end the stream marathon, the three of us will lose money over it, and our community will be quite upset with you. But yeah, you can leave. Alright."
He may have been very emotionally broken that he can't think rationally . Everybody has completly different tolerability levels. The teo guys who tortured him could still have say no too so they are responsible
Nice victim blaming.
He could.
Was it real or simulated? I haven't seen any article make a definitive statement.
“Salut maman, Comment tu vas ? Coincé pour un moment avec son jeu de mort, avait-il déclaré. Ça va trop loin. J’ai l’impression d’être séquestré avec leur concept de merde. J’en ai marre, je veux me barrer, l’autre il veut pas, il me séquestre”. (“Hey Mom, how are you? Stuck for a while with his death game,” he said. “This is going too far. I feel like I’m being held captive with their shitty concept. I’m fed up, I want to get out, the other guy doesn’t want me, he’s holding me captive.”)
Uh, what’s does that matter? Is it ok to stream shit like that if it’s simulated?
The fuck
What changed between the 'months of torture' and Naruto and Safine being arrested, and the '10 days ' leading up to his death?
It sounds sick that the French government would decide a man is being tortured yet they're not obligated to intervene... while at the same time they fine a company for not stepping in.
If this man was negligently killed, authorities and kick are to blame, but it's the authorities that should've been the failsafe, not the company. I guess it makes sense that French politicians are Very Mad™ and Seriously Considering Bigger Punishments™.
It's not the French government issuing the fine, it's the Australian, where the company is hosted. They probably should have hosted themselves in the US and hid behind the first amendment
Believe it or not, prolonged physical and mental torture is not speech, a religion, a function of the press, an assembly, or a petition. You could probably get some of the physical violence covered by the Second Amendment though, if you have a gun and just do a little of the South Park "he's coming right for us" thing.
I'm not exactly a US constitutional lawyer, but I'm willing to bet that snuff films aren't protected by the First Amendment.
Exactly. Law enforcement investigated and found no wrongdoing. They’re the ones who dropped the ball here. Was there something else Kick was legally obligated to do? I agree that there was a moral fuck up here resulting in somebody dying. But torture between competent consenting adults is legal. Just like we’re saying BDSM is okay
Also someone else mentioned the TV show Jackass and I just wanna know how some are drawing the line here. So are some of the dangerous stunts on Jackass ok or not? Why?
Jackass stunts and fights aren't sustained over multiple days ever
It seemed that for Jackass ultimately noone was killed. Also it seems that the participants were not in a vulnerable situation that was exploited, but engaged with full consent and were able to give consent.
Exactly the autorities should be help accountable too
The autority should be held accountable too since they opened an investigation but did not force the streamers to temporarly stop streaming till the investigation is finished
I don't think that's a real issue. depending on how long this investigation goes, that would either be meaningless loss of revenue for these content creators, or an easy way to destroy the career of any other content creators too if a disgruntled viewer reports them falsely.
This is straight out of Black Mirror S7E1 and the idea behind the “Dum Dummies” site. 😭
They deserve to pay every dime of it. They exploited this man's torture with full knowledge of what they were doing to him on stream after multiple complaints
Can somebody explain to me why, emotions aside, the French guy is not responsible for his own choices? Unless it comes to light that he was coerced into staying on the show, why are other parties being held responsible instead of himself?
I'm not looking to be controversial, I'm honestly curious if there's some rational logic to it that I can understand, or this is all emotional.
It's a difficult situation to explain, and it will be even harder to judge.
What seems to be true is that they had a hold on him. They seemed to abuse his mental weaknesses, and regularly made themselves look like benefactor for "saving him from himself" and making him earn a lot of money.
Sure he could have technically walked out any day, but when you're under the influence of manipulative "friends", I'm not sure it's that easy.
Bear in mind that I'm not stating 100% proven facts.
Article 223-15-2 of the French Penal Code. This article punishes the fraudulent abuse of the ignorance or state of weakness of a minor or a person whose particular vulnerability is apparent or known due to age, sickness, disability, pregnancy, or psychological dependency
Well. Devil's advocate, they are holding the streaming service responsible because they didn't block the stream, which presumably would presumably disrupt the streamer's actions. I don't personally think Kick should be responsible at all.
Yeah, I don't see how they're responsible either, but I'm getting lots of emotional replies and nobody actually seems to want to admit they're advocating censorship. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing.
Yeah I don’t think the company should be legally responsible, since the streamers were investigated for abuse and subsequently cleared by police. Was there something the platform was legally obligated to do further? We can say it was morally wrong to allow the streaming of that type of content, yes
Whenever you do something that results in the death of another human there needs to be an investigation. From what I can tell no culpability has been found yet, but there is at least some evidence that this person was being held against their will.
However, lots of European countries treat violence like the US treats porn so this could easily be something similar to the pearl clutching that would happen here if somebody was asphyxiated during a BDSM livestream.
The french guy is free to do as he likes in the privacy of his own home. The line in the sand is the streaming of it online. Promoting violence is not ok and Kick should have banned them long before it got to this point
Other parties are being held responsible for what?
Well the article is about the platform potentially being fined 49M, so... whatever charge they're being fined for?
I'd imagine inducing stress and manipulation if anything. Pormanove and the fourth guy were and are both mentally challenged and thus more easily manipulated and coerced. Also no way you don't see the signs coming from your "friend" after streaming together for more than a year and a half
Can someone point out the part where this wasn't voluntary or the guy was held captive & not free to leave or end the voluntary abuse at any time?
It looks like idiots kink-playing too hard with extra fines to some platform while the morons try to escape accountability.
Viral compilation threads have shown Pormanove being hit, strangled, and fired at with paintball guns while streaming with Naruto and Safine, whose lawyers claim they hold “no responsibility.”
The company is still at fault for not banning such behavior on their service. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom to be violent and promote violence.
Violence is fine. What's not fine is the permanent disfigurement or death of participants and the lack of preventative controls against that.
In a cage match, a participant would never be ignored long enough to stop breathing, like they did here.
Kink playing is ultimately the responsibility of the top, if this was that.
It's not, because they disregarded that person's state of well-being in a continued way.
This comment might provide some insights: https://lemmy.zip/comment/21080783
Also, IMO, voluntary or not, this goes over the edge, especially on the streaming part. If someone genuinely enjoys this, they can do it in private, and exactly as they like.
When money and popularity get involved, this prompts more extreme behavior, turning a willing masochist into a victim, and a game into a trap.
Besides, authorities could have at least checked up on him.
This comment might provide some insights: https://lemmy.zip/comment/21080783
Sources for that information should be easy to cite, yet I notice none.
they can do it in private
How do we tell real apart from fake performances? Should fake performances be private only when they already aren't? Seems difficult to police without chilling freedoms.
Economic coercion needs to be controlled somehow. I guess the question is how to police actual abuse while permitting legal performances like the Jackass franchise of reality, slapstick comedy.
I feel completely out of the loop when stuff like this happens.
I went looking around and found an article that expanded a lot on this topic, https://maxread.substack.com/p/who-killed-jean-pormanove
This is helpful, thanks.
Story of my life. Major story drops, article provides little to no context, and everyone in the comments already seems to know what's going on.
This happens constantly in my life, both online and offline; why does it seem like I'm always being left out? I've missed out on so many parties and events because of this issue.
In this case I am quite happy to be out of the loop, frankly. I can live in blissful ignorance of at least this stuff.
Damn, that was a good read.
Should get double finned for torturing Jean + Raja almost beating someone to death on stream.
that was terrible to watch, and i heard all the MMA people defending raja.
The people who work for thr ufc have been defending raja but the mma community wants him in jail. Theyre way to racist to miss this opportunity.
Mr Beast offering to pay for Raja’s opponent’s medical bills; he’s frankly lucky what happened to Jean hasn’t happened on his watch tbh. But he’d probably get off
mr beast is such attention seeker, he does charity porn and most likely going to make a video on how he just paid for it, which makes it insincere when people do these kinds of things.
From libé article:
Raphaël Graven, 46, known under the pseudonym Jean Pormanove, died near Nice during a live broadcast on August 18 on the Australian video platform Kick after more than 12 days of live streaming showing him and another man being assaulted and humiliated by two people. Followed by nearly 200,000 viewers, the “Jeanpormanove” channel had for months shown Raphaël Graven being insulted, beaten, having his hair pulled, threatened, and even being shot at without protection with paintball projectiles. According to the channel’s promoters, the content was staged.
Deputy Minister for Digital Affairs Clara Chappaz on Tuesday announced her intention to sue the Kick platform for “breach.” She made the announcement after a meeting convened at Bercy with officials from several ministries (Justice, Interior, Economy) and two independent authorities, accusing Kick of violating the 2004 Digital Trust law.
Good thing Sauber is becoming Audi next season. That’s a lot of money for a title sponsor to lose (and it sounds like they deserve to lose it).
You are out of frame, Donny
Money truly justifies all.
I guess I'm too old to understand what the hell Kick is or how grown people are making a living being childish bullies, but for Christ's sake, they just killed courage the dog's owner.
courage the dog’s owner
Now I feel a little better Eustace he scared me as a kid
Sorry, I was making an oblique reference to section 230 that says an internet publisher isn't responsible for what users use their medium for. Even if it is is indecent.
What does US law matter to France in this case?
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