If we're going to have an effective strategy against FB/Meta, we should clear up some misconceptions around defederation

This entire argument is bullshit. Meta needs to be an island from our perspective. Let them do their thing over there, we'll do our thing over here. Their goal is to lure (probably former reddit or twitter) users to Threads and then cut off the greater Fediverse as a whole once their user base is established and much larger than ours. And they want to use our numbers to boost their for profit platform to make it appear more successful.

Separation from these kinds of corporate entities is exactly what the Fediverse is about. We can talk about "open" all we like but there is already a short list of bad actors we don't allow here: Nazis and fascists, pedos and kiddie diddlers, etc. We can add Meta to that list as well.

We don't want them interacting with us at all. Get out the hammer and ban them. Entirely.

I'll add an edit to say this: I say that defederation is not extreme enough. They need to be blocked. Instances need to implement ToS and licensing that prohibits them from hoovering up and regurgitating our content. We need to start outright blocking Meta at the network level. Whatever the hell it takes. Line in the sand. No means no.

No Meta. Ever.

Think of this: In the past, we have never had any choice other than to roll over and accept whatever bullshit the major social media companies push on us. If you want to communicate, if you want to use any platform, if you want to be in, you had to deal with them and their system. Because they were big and you were little, and what are you going to do about it? You have no choice but to roll over.

Well, we don't have to roll over anymore. We have this one -- and believe me, only this one -- opportunity to unequivocally tell them NO. We are not your product. You have no value to us. You aren't a monopoly anymore. We do not need your corporate influence, we do not need your corporate bullshit. We are free of you, and we don't need you.

Another edit: Oh, look. What do I find right at the top of my feed first thing this morning? Why, it's yet another example of Meta being evil. And you still want them to have influence in the Fediverse?

I fully agree that it doesn't matter for Lemmy right now. The issue is mostly Mastodon and Kbin, as both compete directly with Threads; and in a smaller scale Friendica, Matrix and PixelFed as they compete with FB/WhatsApp/IG.

The main reason why I support defederation is to not have users in Mastodon relying on contacts and content from Threads at all. Because, once Threads pulls off the plug (eventually they will want to), Mastodon won't be some small but stable network; it'll be a shrinking one, and that's way worse.

just want to clarify something:

However, the way that activitypub works, the outgoing data is publicly available. Defederating with Meta doesn't prevent that,

there is a technical solution to this in the form of authorized fetch: https://hub.sunny.garden/2023/06/28/what-does-authorized_fetch-actually-do/

mastodon implements it, pleroma/akkoma probably implements it, pixelfed implements it, firefish and iceshrimp implement it (sharkey has a PR implementing it opened just today), gotosocial not only implements it but enforces it, with no ability to turn it off

notably, none of the threadiverse software implement it, and no software other than the aforementioned gotosocial enable it by default.

I think we should encourage politicians, governments and public figures to either self host or use non-threads instances. That way, Threads cannot easily shut off AP support or screw around too badly or their own content will decline.

Right now, social.bbc is a thing. Hopefully when threads launches activitypub, they'd notice that having a presence on both threads and their own instance is pointless, and prefer their own instance

Im pretty sure meta give zero fucks about joining the fediverse beyond trying to destroy it. I imagine they only started threads to nullify it by either proving it doesnt work (threads looks pretty garbage) or they want to control the content where mainstream fediverse will never take off.

Im here because i liked reddit but hated being a product. Meta/facebook was zero percent of that initial switch calculation as i havent been on their stuff for nearly a decade. The api shutdown ay the alien site was the last straw. I dont want to interact or give data to facebook/meta. Just my two cents.

I want to throw this into the mix, but something that kept getting ignored early on during the reddit departure was the implications of defederation on how that effects networked systems.

It's part of the math of social graphs, but bad faith instances and teolling, severely impacted Lemmy's initial ability to catch on. By defederaring you massively reduced the total size of the network interactions that take place ( even if it's very important to do so ).

This has the potential to allow meta controlled instances to rapidly out populate non meta controlled instances. From there it's only a matter of time before they end up with a seat on the activity hub team. Then we're back where we started.

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I'm ok with instances defederating because it gives them time to wait and see how to handle the influx and what other unknowns might happen, but I agree that it's just not a strategy to stop EEE. We need to do more and do it smartly.

To me it's like a trade war, we have a couple strategies we can do. Isolationism is one of few options that I can think of that has only failed historically. I'm ok with protectionism even better when it's just reusable user protections, like automating ad blocks, sponsored content blocks/labels, etc, but also maybe we do things like not federation communities from Threads, definitely blocking anything that isn't in the open spec.

Evaluate things critically, okay let’s do that.

Pros: Meta doesn’t exist here.

Cons:

I like your take. Unfortunately, I don’t see a way forward where Meta isn’t at least partially successful in extinguishing the fediverse. We’ll probably be fine, because we’re here now and our shit works, but the most likely scenario I see is in the future the common perception of fediverse microblogging apps will be, “oh, that place where users can never see when I’m using ___ feature.” Then it will be harder to attract new users, just like it was so hard for Firefox to attract users when sites were broken because of IE’s EEE tactics.

I vote yes because I don't want to see threads posts.

I’m mostly afraid of spam. I don’t mind if a company wants to advertise to their own user base, but I definitely don’t want to deal with spam from elsewhere. I hope the protocol addresses this in a way.

I’d like to see the fediverse embrace and extend, rather than meta.

Money is going to be involved at some point, better make the rules now before meta does.

AFAIK, Meta cannot modify algorithms in lemmy code / created in networks inside lemmy instances (if that’s s thing) unless meta starts running those instances themselves. No doubt, using meta’s instance and client will let meta do what it wants to do.

I think the harder problem here is meta isn’t a curated collection of 300+ instances we can block when we don’t like the instance (e.g., instances != facebook communities). Meta is just going to come online with a large instance with millions of users. It’s kind of hard to judge all of meta users at once, as an instance provider. So, I guess instances who don’t want meta, don’t get meta. Fair.

I agree with all the misconceptions you’ve cleared up, and you’ve also made a great case for why people would want to join a smaller private instance instead of facebook. I guess I just don’t see the present threat to the fediverse with meta (aside from instances being bombarded with trash that needs to be defederated from that instance). There’s absolutely an existential threat, but the beauty of open source is that as long as there are devs willing to work on it, it can still exist - meta cannot buy the current version of lemmy we are all using and prevent it from being run, for example.

I like how amplified divisive content, misinformation and content moderation is the "legitimate" risks like it's not already an issue here.

Wrong. degeneration might be the ONLY way to prevent Faceboom from pulling an EEE.

You just don't invite a vampire into your house. Consider the nazi bar analogy.

image was just for the thumbnail, hope it doesn't distract from the message

I'm pretty sur meta doesn't care to federate. I bet they will even defederate rather aggressively to enforce their moderation.

IMO federating is a good move to steal users from it. There is no user to steal for meta, people here are here because they fled the other platforms. Meta users though are unaware of this other world, and they can easily be brought in if they can discover it.

The island on the left is Facebook right?

I'm sorry but your post just doesn't make sense for me.

It's well written, and there are a lot of good things "everyone" should do, but they are a one man with a 1.000 times us army. We twiddling here and there will just make it easier to do whatever they want.

We need a clear idea and way forward.

Or several, because that will battle harden those ideas, and we'll see which new idea we should follow.

I know you put lot of effort into this post, but I'm sure as hell going to defederate with meta, microsoft, and actually even an eventual enormous Lemmy instance if it's using predatory algorithms.

I'm here to share my knowledge and learn from people who are interested in the same things as I am, see some new stuff, love live laugh a bit with memes. I'm not here to waste my life or generate revenue.

Cheers!

Great explanation. So sad whenever I see people spout 'data privacy' as a reason to defederate from threads.

I'm not staying on any server connected to Meta. Simple as that.

Everything else stated here just sounds like scattering focus while meta takes over through federation.

I'm not sure it's as big of a deal with Lemmy. Threads data doesn't map very well into Lemmy and vice versa. Like with Mastodon, I can read this post and comment on it, but it's not really a great way to interact. I think it's a bigger deal on the Mastodon/Calckey/etc side. If IG/FB federate then it becomes a different story, IMO.