French state schools turn away dozens of girls wearing Muslim abaya dress

Any islamic subject is a very good way to drive people attention away from other subjects. Each time the government wants to avoid to talk about a given subject they found something new to make scandals. For example, they don't have enough teachers anymore, thousands of them are needed but the most important subject that the whole country should discuss is a few hundred people wearing abayas.

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Okay, let's look at several arguments that have been presented here in favor of this law:

"Display of religion must be banned for a secular learning experience": Firstly, how do you even define "display of religion"? If I say "Merry Christmas", is it a display of religion? If I grow my hair out, is that display of religion? If I wear a steel bracelet, is that display of religion? Because the last two actions are actually associated with Sikhism. If I wear the Mormons' holy underwear, is that display of religion? If I say "Jesus fkin Christ" when I hear about a fascist law like this, is that banned too now? Secularism is respecting all religious classifications and allowing them to coexist. Secularism is NOT forcing everyone to look and behave as if they are in the same religious classification.
"The abaya dress isn't even French/Respect the culture of the country that you are in:"

Individuals who say this seem to have what is known as the "conventionalist" ethical framework. This framework has maaany problems. However, even if we look at this law from the point of view of this framework, it becomes unethical. The official national motto of France is "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity". This law seems to contradict all three of these principles.

It contradicts "liberty", as it literally permits the government to tell its citizens what they can and cannot wear on their body. Abayas are not even inherently religious. It is like the government banning polo t-shirts because they are "Christian".

The law contradicts "equality" as it unequally affects Muslims and Sikhs, as their religious expression involves the use of clothing more than other religions. Sure, harmful clothing must not be permitted (like the knives that Sikhs are supposed to carry according to their religion). Abayas are not harmful in any way. Hence, they do not fall into this category.

Finally, this law contradicts "fraternity", as fraternity literally means "brotherhood" in this context. "No matter how different we are, we are still brothers with a goal to work for the people of France" is what this implies. Banning something as harmless as clothing attributed to a given religion is not a sign of brotherhood.

"Just have school uniforms": Clothing is one of the most important mediums of expression for humans. All humans have their own individual identities. The goal of schools should not be to make Stormtroopers. Rather, it should be to make students better versions of themselves. Having school uniforms goes strongly against this idea. One may argue that this also goes against the idea of "liberty".
"Did you know that Abayas and Hijabs are the result of an authoritarian religion?" Firstly, no. Abayas have nothing to do with religion. Sure, it is possible that a parent(s) may force their child to wear a particular type of clothing that aligns with their religious beliefs. In that case, the school can provide support to such students. However, what if a child themself wish to wear a particular type of clothing? What's the harm in that? This argument for the ban is similar to saying "some individuals are buttfucked without their consent. Therefore, let's ban buttfucking".

I'm atheist and socialist. I'm sad to see some of my fellow socialists arguing for the ban as well. Atheists have and are presently being persecuted in many countries in the world. By supporting the persecution of other religious classifications, we are essentially doing exactly what is being done to us. There is no moral difference between us and the individuals persecuting us in this case.

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How do I know abays is religious dress? Hmm yeah, so much debate here, it's really non-conclusive. We should ask some kind of Counsel about it
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- Ehh... Doesn't prove this by any means. For example, a type of clothing called a "kurta" is worn by Hindus and Muslims both. In religious ceremonies in both religions, attendees usually wear it. Now, this doesn't mean that the garment suddenly is a religious garment, does it? It just is a cultural garment that is usually worn in the Indian subcontinent.
  
  Now, even if the abaya is a religious garment, the points that I mentioned above still apply. What if I started a new religion called "Religion of yellow clothes"? Let's say my religious clothes are all yellow clothes. Does France ban everyone from wearing yellow clothes now because of me?
  
  0

Great news! More countries need to make it uncomfortable for religious people to live normally. I'm getting tired of coddling adults!

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Permanently Deleted

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This is BS

Let people wear what they want. If they want to wear religious clothing, let them. It’s not hurting anyone. This law, while technically applying equally to all religions is very clearly targeted at a single group that has been persecuted for this before

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Giving religion safe spaces in society normalizes it. Normalizing religion does hurt people. It hurts the mind's ability to think rationally, not to mention all the intolerance that seems to come from it.

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- I disagree. I’m an atheist, and we shouldn’t restrict anyone’s ability to practice their religion unless it actually harms others. This isn’t a safe space, it’s simply persecuting a single religion because the population dislikes Muslims.
  
  Religion is not an exclusively bad thing. It has done harm, but it also does have good effects.
  
  15
- I'm really glad all the smug atheists came over from reddit too
  
  -7
It is very efficient at having people talk about it, and temporarily forget all the places missing teachers, the sad state of a lot of school buildings, the lack of recognition (and decent salary) that's been the norm for decades at this point, and actual issues regarding kids.

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- The law is there to remind that no religious sign or clothe are accepted into the public system. People who disagree with it can go to the private school.
  
  9
- This is exactly my problem with this. Regardless of your position on the issue it's just a diversion to get us all riled up.
  
  3
You mean targeting a group that is forcing clothing?

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Eh muslims are the fucking worst if you ever really get to know any, I'm inclined to support this law

-1
- Oh I see, you're actually just a blatant racist. That explains why you expect others to give a shit about your opinions on certain jokes too I suppose.
  
  I'm definitely a weirdo, I'll give you that. But you're a genuine scumbag so I'll take weirdo all day long :) x
  
  You know who are really the fucking worst? Racists.
  
  1

Watched a video on institutions in France today. Specifically police, I had no idea how terrible it is.

Video for context: Warning incredibly sad but its important to know how terrible people are so we don't repeat history. https://youtu.be/jUxiTdRTPMg?feature=shared

11

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4

Set against the 12 million school boys and girls who started term on Monday, the government believes the figures show that its ban has been broadly accepted.

Lol the target was like 300 girls tp start with. What a pitiful way to call this a win.

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I'll NEVER understand the need for so many non Muslim people to defend what is absolutely a disgusting sexist practice meant to degrade, humiliate and dehumanize women. Fuck so many of you loser fucking idiots and especially fuck you idiots saying shit like, "well what if they choose to be an object?" "What if they like being obedient to every whim of men?"

9

Freedom is non-negotiable.

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Ima leave this here. Speak to opressed people as a peer, your not their parents.

2
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=asjmdBOUjQI
  
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  
  I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
  
  2
Dude the only loser here is you. Itsa fuckjng dress. It's not even like a hijab or anything it's a fucking dress, goet over yourself you utter wank stain.

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- Anger issues eh?
  
  0

I’m sorry... WHAT?!

9

France banned basically all religious symbols in public schools. This includes crosses or the Jewish kippah. It's now expanded to include the abaya dresses. Veils and headscarves were already banned.

I think it's stupid since the dress isn't necessarily religious. It's just commonly worn by Muslims. Might as well ban white buttoning down shirts at this point because that's what some christians wear, especially to church.

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- I'm curious as to how they even define and abaya. Like... Other than being a loose fitting dress made of a square piece of cloth, theres not much to define it. Dresses that fit the description are also worn by "westerners."
  
  11
- Nah, covering your head at all times is explicitly a religious thing.
  
  9
- the dress isn't necessarily religious
  
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaya
  
  essentially a robe-like dress, worn by some women in parts of the Muslim world
  
  It is common that the abaya is worn on special occasions, such as Mosque visits, Islamic Holiday celebrations for Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha and also during the Islamic Holy month of Ramadan
  
  I also wear a kippa on my head and a cross around my meck. But it's not necessarily religious. I just like the design. /s
  
  France is a secular country. It's probably hard to understand for you free people of freedomland, but ALL signs of religion are banned from public institutions.
  
  4
- One one hand, it seems a little extreme, on the other hand, if they have a religious exemption to a school uniform and they are blocking religious items/clothing at school then it kinda makes sense.
  
  (Do the French do school uniforms?)
  
  4

Joke is on them, my religion forces kids to wear jeans!

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Good.

3

Classy

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Yeah, I'm not concerned by this at all TBH. I would like to see more countries fully ban them outright.

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Very good. If you want to live in a European society, finally integrate and don't separate from it actively. We don't need a divided society with unrest. Look at Sweden rn.

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It's a loose dress. How is a generic loose dress preventing people from integrating? My american grandma has dresses like this.

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- It’s a loose dress. How is a generic loose dress preventing people from integrating? My american grandma has dresses like this
  
  I think its the headscarf thingy most people have a problem with. Nobody cares about the dress part. But you likely knew that already.
  
  I dont care either way about the subject at hand (Not Canadian) but it would be nice if we could leave these bad faith arguments on Reddit so nobody wastes their time arguing about nonsense if its a dress or a burka.
  
  -5
Very good

Before this made the news, barely anyone knew what it was. The most prominent people in favor of this could not distinguish an actual fashion dress from an abaya on a picture. Stop pretending it is to help integration; it's just harassing a very, very small minority of people, because it's easier than address issues.

Consider that the kids that got trouble there were actually going to a public school, and were turned away. Please tell me how that helps them integrate.

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Sweden is cool. It integrates the immigrants and does not exclude them for generations like France.

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- What kind of exclusion for generations are you talking about ?
  
  Immigration per country in EU : France : 7.4 millions Sweden : 1.1 millions
  
  -1
Yeah tell us more about Sweden?

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Add another racist loser to the ban pile

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- We have the big winner in life here, who cannot even lead a discussion without insulting people.
  
  0

Good.

Assimilate to a modern, industrialized, secular society or go back to the 3rd world theocracy that you or your parents ran away from.

Funny how these people flee these ultra conservative hell holes and then go to these 1st world nations and try to push the same type of religious-focused thinking that made their old homes a hell hole to begin with. I give props to France for not backing down on this nonsense.

For the most part, all France has to do is get ONE generation of these immigrants assimilated into the French culture and they will never go back to their caveman upbringing. Get these girls to get rid of their Muslim outfits and by the time these girls get married and start raising kids the mere thought of wearing an abaya would be considered a joke that only backwards-thinking people do.

-8

Agreed! Adapt or get out. Leave your caveman religion behind if you want to move to a civilized country such as France.

2