Electorialism (tempted to vote biden)
Electorialism (tempted to vote biden)
I am so so divided on if I should vote for biden or not. I wanna vote third party to at least do something or should I just stay home and protest and advocate where I can? Thoughts?
People have a fucked-up understanding of voting in the US. You are not voting for the person you agree with. You are voting for the person you’d rather negotiate with.
If you actually care beyond the aesthetics of whether you did the cool thing or not, you have to think about the function of what you’re doing and not just whether it feels good.
112Unfortunately, you should vote for the lesser of two evils. Biden is shit, but he isn't a fascist/theocrat.
Locally, look for candidates that want to push for election reformation, push these initiatives yourself, look for activists groups promoting it. Getting rid of first past the post voting is the first step in opening the door for more than 2 parties.
56Unfortunately in this election (like last one and probably the next few elections at least), we don't have the luxury of voting for who we most idealistically agree with, or making a protest statement. Fascism and authoritarianism are on the rise here (and in many other places). It has completely taken control of one of the two major parties, the Republican party.
The way our electoral system works, if we don't vote for the only viable opposition, which is the Democrats, we are in danger of allowing an authoritarian regime to take over and toss democracy and our civil rights aside. Once democracy is lost it will take generations to get back, if ever. Trump in spite of everything, is the likely republican nominee (if not, someone just like him). See what would happen if he gets into office again here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-2024-platform-so-far-1.6961527
That's scary as hell. Despite people being unhappy with Biden or his age, he has accomplished a lot in spite of the odds, with republicans doing all in their power to stop him. See https://navigatorresearch.org/lowering-drug-prices-and-investing-in-infrastructure-are-most-popular-and-known-biden-accomplishments/
But the main point is that electing Biden (or whatever Democrat it may be if he doesn't run for some reason) will prevent the authoritarian regime from taking power.
42If voting did nothing, there wouldn't be so much voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Personally, I would say absolutely do not stay home. If you want to abstain from the presidential vote or primaries it might not make a difference, depending on your state, but in the more local ballots you can make a difference for sure. Even better, consider getting involved in local politics, even just in the school board. Showing up to meetings and speaking can change minds. Shifting your town's culture and making local connecions makes a bigger difference than a vote for Biden in most states.
Voting is not enough, but as someone else here said, vote for who you'd rather negotiate with. Additionally, when people like Trump get elected it sends a message to their sympathizers that they're in the right, and it helps the overton window shift to the right. Look at the increase in hate crime after Trump won. Who is in power can cause cultural shifts that also make activism harder or easier, or even literally safer.
39The structure of how elections in almost all of the US are conducted, with a plurality determining the winner, means that there's a huge advantage to choosing to vote for somebody who has a big coalition and whose views are less far from your own than the other big coalition.
Let's look at three examples:
Example 1:
- R: 1000 votes
- D: 1001 votes
- I/non-vote: 0
Democrat wins
Example 2:
- R: 1000 votes
- D: 1000 votes
- I/non-vote: 1
Election is a tie, with the winner decided by flipping a coin or other game of chance
Example 3:
- R: 1000 votes
- D: 999 votes
- I/non-vote: 2
Republican wins
So long as plurality-take-all is how US elections are run, it makes sense for anybody left-of-center to vote for Biden in the general election.
Getting better policies means not just doing that though, but taking active steps to volunteer for and donate to candidates during primaries, as well as seeking out close house and close senate races in the general election to support Democrats, thereby shifting the balance of power slightly to the left.
31Not what you want to hear but voting third party or staying home is the opposite of doing something. It might feel like a moral victory but the practical result will be a vote for the right-wing. Third party candidates are not viable until we get rid of First-Past-the-Post, and unfortunately I have no idea what a realistic way to go about changing that is.
29Vote for biden. Anything is better than Trump this year
29“If Nixon wins again, we’re in real trouble.” He picked up his drink, then saw it was empty and put it down again. “That’s the real issue this time,” he said. “Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”
I nodded. The argument was familiar. I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
. . .
Now, with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing, this year, is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960—and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.
— Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail
27It's an unpopular position, but I think you should vote for the party you believe will do the best job.
The problem with the "a vote for X is really a vote for Y" mentality is that Z then has no motivation to support your interests. More plainly, voting Democrat in the US may well keep Trump out, but Biden will have no reason to support a progressive agenda: he has your vote by default and he knows it.
The Democrats and other "centrist" parties lean on this tactic heavily because it means they never have to worry about doing anything difficult, like getting money out of politics, nationalising health care, or standing up to fossil fuel companies. It's effectively how the Right captures the Left: just run a more extreme candidate on the Right.
The truth is that 3rd parties are incredibly powerful. Just look at UKIP here in the UK, or the NDP and Bloc Québéquois in Canada. They never win (nationally) but the major parties have to adopt their policies to keep voters from bleeding to these smaller parties. It's why Canada is more progressive than the US, why every national project there has special exceptions for Québéc, and why the UK left the EU: none of these parties needed to "win" elections to accomplish their goals. Fear of losing votes to them was enough.
The Democrats could be more progressive. They could have run an actual socialist in the last election and won, but they opted for someone who wouldn't really change anything. The only way they'll ever run a change maker is if they think you and others like you might choose someone else.
15If you actually want to do something other than choose between the two options presented by the two major parties on election day, then your ONLY real option is to get involved in the process at a MUCH deeper level.
That starts with voting in primaries...and voting for lesser elections...but it also involves actually getting involved with one of the two major parties at a local level and doing more. Supporting candidates you like from the ground up, perhaps even running as a candidate for some minor office if there's not enough competition, attending meetings and otherwise getting genuinely involved with the political process.
Because voting third party in the US on election day has no more meaning than not voting at all. Third parties are not viable in the US system, and never will be. The choice will always be between two at that point, so the only way to improve is to get into it earlier in the process.
If you don't do that, then all you can do is pick between Republican and Democrat and that's it. Doing anything else is not participating, it's pretending to participate. It's showing up to a game of poker and declaring your 2 aces as blackjack. You're not playing the game that's being played if you do that.
14Does your city have ranked choice voting? If not, then there is where to focus. Maine already has it at the state level.
I'd recommend flipping the standard view of elections; federal elections are the least important, then state, and local are the most important.
After your state has ranked choice (e.g. if you're from Maine), then I'd say it's fair to complain about federal level choices.
14how is this related to solarpunk?
13Was not expecting so much input from so many voices. Thank you all for taking the time of your day to respond to my little dilemma. Means a lot to see comrades helping comrades. :)
10Just because you vote for someone doesn't mean you can't protest against their actions or take other political action.
You're choosing the people that you can influence later via political protest and other actions.
10Electoralism won't change anything, correct. It will, however, protect the status quo. You must combine a protection against fascism with proactive, grassroots movement to organize and unify your community. Start a Cooperative garden, a union at your local workplace, start trading with your neighbors. Hold a revolution from the bottom-up, rather than expecting the top-down approach to ever put someone more bottom-up oriented at the top.
9In the US it's not really feasible to vote 3rd party without throwing your vote away. Something like the parliamentary systems would work better, or perhaps a ranked choice. You are going to have either the R or D candidate as president. Best to choose the one you can stomach the most.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
It should be changed, but would require a rewrite of a lot of the constitution.
9While I hope more people can bring their point of view to assist you in your decision-making, I will put my grain of salt. In times like these, I confess I choose anarchy, and a thinker of this position that covers the topic you are talking about is Enrico Malatesta in his text At The Café, which is free for everyone to read at The Anarchist Library.
The way I see it, like many anarchists, is that electoralism is part of the racket. But I understand why some people may see it as an essential part of politics. I'd rather keep working on those grassroots and direct democracy or consensus organizations that require our daily efforts than try to see who we'll put in the decision-making seat and keep taking more power to the people.
8Voter suppression has been happening since voting was invented. One of the most effective methods of voter disenfranchisement is spreading the message that your vote doesn't matter. Do not believe this message when you hear it. It serves the goals of people who want you to not vote. The fewer active voters there are, the easier it is to manipulate how they vote.
To choose not to vote is to disenfranchise yourself.
GO VOTE
And if you really want to help, become a voter advocate and/or poll worker.
7I was gonna make this a reply, but I guess it fits as a general comment.
There will always be some excuse to maintain the status quo.
In the USA people say it's because of "first past the post"(*). But in Portugal there is no such thing. We have a parliamentary system (technically semi-presidential, but for practical purposes parliamentary) but somehow people still find an excuse to always maintain the status quo. Since we've been a democracy (49 years), only two parties have ever been in power. Before the last elections, we had 9 parties in parliament. After several decades of incompetence, and everyone complaining about how corrupt the system and politicians are, the same party won the last elections with a majority vote, and now we have 8 parties in parliament. Basically, we're not too far from a two-party system.
This happens because there's always some excuse to compromise; in my country, the excuse/logic to rally behind the centrists and put them in power is something like "look how much the extreme right is growing, we have to keep them at bay! Plus, the other parties are probably as bad and corrupt anyway!", with the expression "useful vote" thrown around a lot. Never mind the fact the far right are growing due to the incompetence of the people currently in power, and that, being a parliamentary system, a vote for any non-right wing party already works to keep the right at bay. And the cherry on top is how everyone gas lits themselves with "the other parties that never had any power are probably as bad and corrupt as the parties that have been in power for decades and which we know for a fact are bad and corrupt".
This isn't very eloquently written, but hopefully the point comes across: some people always expect you to "compromise" with them by doing exactly what they want, while they don't compromise at all; and some people create a self full fulling prophecy by convincing themselves from the start that there are no other options. I can't speak 100% for the USA because I don't understand the system as well, but at least in my country the reality is that if everyone actually voted for the people they most align with, we could still keep the right at bay and not put all the power in the hands of the "moderates".
(*)but, unless I am massively mistaken, if a third party gets enough votes they will still get seats in parliament which should still give them power, or at least still take power away from another.
7Only thing I have to add to the others is that this can only change once we have Ranked Choice voting. Look up your local nonprofit supporting this goal and volunteer.
6Yes we should let the worst people in power because the other option isn't perfect, the axis had a lot of issues during ww2 so we should have just let the Nazis win.
6Until your system does anything useful with third party votes or couch-sitting, you go out and vote every time for whatever does the least damage to democracy. But don't disengage from the political world after the election. Between elections, you work to change the system. Find groups that tries to do this and volunteer. If you really care about it, you will need to dedicate your time to the cause, even though it might seem hopeless and may very well be.
I understand your situation sucks and you are tempted to say "Fuck the status quo" and desperately do something different in hopes that something will somehow change. But you know who do go out and vote, every fucking time? The racist assholes who would love to see Trump and his fascists cronies in power. And if that happens, it is game over. You will never get any chance to change anything, except from after a big traumatic event such as a big war ("civil" or otherwise).
6I'm biased, but think you should vote for Biden. I voted for Nader I'm 2000 because I lived in Massachusetts at the time and it didn't matter there but I still regret it on the principle.
Biden is too centrist for my liking but the alternative is total chaos. I am super progressive but did vote for McCain in 2000 for the primary and never voted for Ted Kennedy!
4Do what you want and don't be guilted by fear-mongerers on social media. If you want to vote third party, you should.
4America (and alot of countries to be fair) need ranked choice voting systems so damn badly for this exact reason (if you're unfamiliar with it, a simple version is that basically you rank your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd pick, your first pick gets 3 points, 2nd pick 2 points, 3rd pick 1 point. At the end they tally up the points, and the party with the most wins).
Singular vote systems trend naturally towards 2 party systems often, whereas with a ranked choice system, far right people would vote for far-right-person that loads of people hate, far left people would vote for far-left-person that loads of people hate, but since almost everyone would put moderate-person as their 2nd choice that everyone kind of doesn't like, they would be the one to get elected in this case. It's like the old saying, a good compromise is when nobody is happy. That's what's needed to move away from extremist politics, but without a ranked choice system, it's not going to happen any time soon.
*this is grossly simplified, and there are examples of multi-party systems that don't use ranked choice, and there's many many caveats besides when talking so simply about something as complex as electoral politics, but the fundamental point stands.
3I don't know what the rules are in the US regarding a protest vote, but that's what I do in the UK as long as the candidates I have to choose from (local or general) all make my skin crawl. If you don't represent my interests, you don't get my vote, and neither red nor blue team even pretend to care about people like me at this point, so:
https://www.votenone.org.uk/protest_votes_count.html
Oh, and just to pre-empt any "you're why people like Trump get in", no you. The system is literally designed this way -
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
2Vote for Biden == vote for Genocide.
Vote for Trump == vote for Genocide.
Vote third party == not vote for Genocide
It's not hard.
1I was going to make a funny or meaningful comment, but fuck: look at this shithole full of liberals. Place is getting worse than Beehaw, TBH. Might as well be back on Reddit.
1I say wait for election day and flip a coin, that's basically how elections are determined, the arbitrary whims of the margin of people in swing states who go out to vote or not. You're individual vote does not make any difference in the absence of mass organized action, and the Democrats are terrified of exactly that kind of mass organization because otherwise they wouldn't be so secure in running corporate puppets like Biden.
0I voted for Biden because Trump. I understand and agree with the consequentialist perspective. A vote is not a declaration of love or an expression of identity. But as I see the desperate messages from Gaza, while Biden sends more weapons and gives diplomatic cover for mass murder if not genocide, I can't. There's a point where even a vote becomes too much complicity, when the means are so grotesque that no end can justify them. Everyone should decide what their limit is. But mine was crossed
0okay i handed a brick to the voting guy in the booth now what?
0If you live in 44 out of 50 states, congratulations. Your electoral vote basically has 0% chance of mattering. Vote for who you like the most.
If you live in 1 of the of the other 6 states, congrats, your vote has like a 0.01% chance of mattering, but if enough people follow that line of thinking it might actually matter, so probably consider who you vote for more seriously because (even though I won't vote for someone like Biden) I still would prefer bidet winning over turnip.
0If you live in 44 out of 50 states, congratulations. Your electoral vote basically has 0% chance of mattering. Vote for who you like the most.
If you live in 1 of the of the other 6 states, congrats, your vote has like a 0.01% chance of mattering, but if enough people follow that line of thinking it might actually matter, so probably consider who you vote for more seriously because (even though I won't vote for someone like Biden) I still would prefer bidet winning over turnip.
-1You might be able to ask someone who is not allowed to vote if they want to fill out your ballot when you vote via postal voting.
And honestly I think people care way to much about voting, there is still a year till the election and its already on their minds as if in one years time nothing mayor could happen. Like literally in the election year of 2020 there was probably the biggest social movement / uprising of recent US history. Who knows what happens 2024.
-1