As of 30 minutes ago at the time of posting, the NYPD has detained two young Black men after they refused their demands to show ID without explanation or cause.
The NYPD is skulking through the L train demanding IDs from Black and Latino men, again with zero justified cause or explanation as to why.
The times become dangerous when the state loses it’s monopoly on violence
"Vhere are your papers??"
ACAB. They’ll never change if our only resistance is peaceful. No significant swing in power between a people and its government has occurred absent of violence.
Where are all the posters who are trying to assuage their guilt for their own inaction by telling you why you're wrong and defensively calling you a keyboard warrior? Is this even Lemmy?
Bad policing is bad for good cops.
Good cops? You mean the ones that stand and watch the bad cops?
The good cop that get beaten by fellow officers: https://sh.itjust.works/post/41445902
Sigh. The responses you got really dishearten me. We really are moving fast to a binary world where everything is good or bad and any opportunity for nuance is thrown out the window.
You are of course 100% correct.
Well good thing there are no good cops 🅰️©️🆎
I mean... there's at least one: https://sh.itjust.works/post/41445902
Dude got beaten by his fellow officers. But now a Progressive Democrat have apppinted them as police commissioner. I hope there is reform (in his department at least), but its not like dude can just fire half of the police force, so once he retires or gets replaced, those rotten apples will start to rot again.
There are no good cops.
Hard disagree. My wife was stopped due to expired registration on our car - My fault, long story. The cop gave her a fix it ticket. Nothing else happened. They're a good cop, or at least they were in that moment.
You know what would have happened if they were a bad cop in that moment? She would have been deported for having brown skin.
Good cops don't make headlines, but they exist, and I'm grateful for the good ones we've encountered.
That being said, bad cops can fuck right off.
I'm no expert on American law but I'm pretty sure you don't have to show ID unless you're given a good explanation for it.
ACAB
"Reasonable articulable suspicion", is the official way of saying that.
"A good explanation" is very undefined. The police has to have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed a crime, and they have to be able to articulate, ie explain that said reasonable suspicion of having committed a specific crime.
They just make it up all the time though, but most of the cops don't even seem to know the law. They just do what other cops do. And never have to take responsibility for breaking the law.
So the 4th amendment of the US Constitution, which outlines the freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, protects people from being forced to verbally identify or show documents of identification without reasonable cause, among other things. What that has been interpreted to mean by the SCOTUS is that, while they can always request ID without it being a lawful order, a request you can deny without consequence, any policy or state/local ID law that requires identification upon officer request without any other reasonable cause is unlawful. In other words they cannot demand id for no actual reason nor punish you for failing to ID without said reason.
At minimum, they need "reasonable and articulable suspicion" of a real crime that has happened, is happening, or is about to happen, in order to legally require you to ID yourself in every state, district, and city in the country (with the exception of if you are driving a car and get pulled over for a lawful infraction, you must provide your license to prove you're allowed to drive the vehicle). "Reasonable and articulable suspicion" means that there are real facts that can be pointed to that a reasonable person would deem as a likely indication of crime, not hunches or racial profiling. Some states have higher levels of requirements in order to ID someone, but none can have lower requirements.
BUT, the unfortunate and infuriating truth is that they do not need to actually explain their reasonable and articulate suspicion to you at the time, which ultimately means that they dont have to have it until they justify it to the court much later. They could be just demanding it for no reason unlawfully. Or they could be demanding it because they just saw you pick pocket someone, or someone pointed you out as someone that threatened them, or you match the description of the person that just broke a bunch of windows nearby. All of those things qualify at reasonable suspicion allowing them to ID you in places where that is the minimum requirement. Even if you did nothing wrong, you could still match a description but aren't the right guy, or they thought that saw you do something unlawful but were actually mistaken. It doesn't matter. They still have reasonable suspicion unless you somehow factually dispel that suspicion. If you do not dispel that suspicion (maybe because they didn't even explain their reasons in the first place) and they demand ID, you can be lawfully required to present it even if you did absolutely nothing wrong and don't have a clue why they are asking at all.
In other words, if they demand ID and don't explain why, there's functionally way to discern at the time if the demand is lawful or unlawful even if you have committed no crimes. So you either comply or go to jail and argue your case in court later, regardless of the truth. And btw, even if they had absolutely no reasonable suspicion to lawfully demand ID at the time, they can just lie to justify it. If the lie is not demonstrably shown to be a lie by other evidence, it's assumed to be true. So... enjoy your "freedoms", I guess.
If the lie is not demonstrably shown to be a lie by other evidence, it's assumed to be true. So... enjoy your "freedoms", I guess.
Yeah. This is why I actually enjoy quite a lot of those first amendment auditors. Not all of them, some of then are just attention seeking arseholes. But for instance one guy who streams his shit and I see sometimes shorts, he wears a bodycam and is simply blessing veterans or something.
Since he just stands in a corner and doesn't interact with anything or anyone, and is quite the striking fella (big man), there's little if no bullshit excuses the cops can come up with, and these guys are ready to go to court.
At least in the US you can try to get your rights, especially if you can afford a lawyer. And you can actually get compensation when the police are noted to have broken your rights.
Not here in Finland.
The police are polite and well behaved on the streets, but...
Well I got abused pretty bad and definitely my rights were broken. But I can't even get anyone to discuss that. In the US I'd have lawyers doing this pro bono just for the payout at the end.
So all cops are bastards, some just in a different way.
Or a man with a gun kidnaps you.
I think it depends on the state? But from what I know in at least some states you don't have to do so unless there's reasonable suspicion of some crime having been committed. IANAL.
Laws aren't a thing anymore. It's a man with a gun, and knowledge nobody will punish him for using it.
As another said, reasonable and articulable suspicion is required to id in every state and city in the country regardless of any lower laws or department policies. However(!), they do not have to share that reasonable suspicion with you at all, and can still demand ID without giving it to you. They can have reasonable suspicion against you that you are not aware of, such as matching a description for a crime you're not involved in. And They could very well have no reasonable suspicion and can lie in the report later if they need to justify it. So long as there isn't evidence contradicting them, the cop's word is assumed as fact. So a demand for ID that is lawful is indistinguishable from an unlawful one if they don't give you the details of their suspicion because you have no way to know if such reason exists or if it's reasonable or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
"Reasonable Suspicion" is very vague btw.
Reminder that there legally cannot be a crime such as "failure to provide identification" outside of specific contexts like actively operating a vehicle, etc. Lots of states allow cops to require you to provide your legal name (and sometimes address) when detained, and courts usually have the ability to compell the same.
Yeah actual laws as written don't matter.
This is fascism; the cop regime. They dont know or care about the laws, everything is vibes, and courts up to and especially the supreme will back them on this.
In England, it's necessary to provide name and address when arrested, but, it's illegal for the police to arrest just to find out your name. But of course, how difficult is it for them to make up some asinine BS excuse?
"I smell weed" has been a classic for decades.
A long while back, I was harassed by the cops for "acting suspicious" while waiting for some friends at the mall. This quickly escalated to "suspected terrorist activity" for absolutely no reason I could discern or anyone afterwards could explain.
Cops just say shit. The best you can do is say you need to speak to a lawyer and clam up after that.
If lots of states allow cops to require you to provide your name and you don't, isn't that refusal to comply with a lawful order, and thus a crime?
Failure to id is a secondary crime, you first need to be lawfully detained/lawfully suspected of a crime, before id can be demanded in 24 states. In the remaining states you need to be arrested before id can be demanded. Driving a motor vehicle is different though. As long as an officer had a reasonable reason for pulling you over, they can id you even if you dispell their suspicions prior to providing ID. If you're pulled over, it's best to always provide ID.
So it's only a lawful order if the police follow the law, if they just walk down the street randomly asking people for id, then failure to comply with their unlawful demands can be thrown out by the courts. Of course the police can just lie and make up a reason they suspected you of a crime, which is why some states have made things like "smelling marijuana" not enough on it's own.
Sure, but if they demand your name, you tell them your name, they can't then demand your ID to prove it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
Not exactly a new thing.
"Resonable Suspicion" is a lower threshold than "Probable Cause".
Reasonable suspicion of a crime. You need to say the whole thing.
The number of cops that thinks "I've got reasonable suspicion of you being suspicious." Has always been too goddamn high. You need reasonable suspicion OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. Being suspicious isn't a crime. Being black or Latino in a subway station isn't a crime. Even stop and identify laws need to be based in reasonable suspicion of a crime because the 4th amendment demands it.
That is why cops have Terry Stops that allow them to fill in the reason as whatever and the judge always sides with the cops
Well played by these two bros.
Making them waste time and resources with nothing to show for it, plus standing up for those who can't. Respect.
This is it honestly. When people slow down police/ICE, it creates a distraction.
When they're arresting grandmas and choking old people, causing a scene changes their focus and lets those people leave unharmed.
Jackboot gestapo fucks
Gaspacho* 😌
“Aren’t you a little short for a stormtrooper?”
Blah blah "unconstitutional" ... blah blah "exactly why our forefathers rebelled" ... blah blah
Bastards in blue doing what they do
If Zohran becomes mayor, can he potentially change anything about how the NYPD does things?
Considering a lot of the NYPD straight up said they'd resign if he became mayor, I think he's got a pretty good chance of bringing change if he really wants to
They said the same thing in my city.
Then they stopped patrolling/enforcing anything.
And surprise surprise, violent crime actually went down.
Now they go around harassing homeless people because they don't have anything else to do.
Give it to NYPD for threatening us all with a good time.
That’s one way to dispose of all those bad apples
Ny is just full on police state. They need every single cop swapped
The department is administered and governed by the police commissioner, who is appointed by the mayor to what is, nominally, a five year term.
Can Zohran fire the existing commissioner and replace him? Idk what the bureaucracy around that looks like. Entrenched power structures have a way of slow rolling executives thru don't like and ignoring rules they don't want to follow.
A lot of levers of power that worked for a Guliani or an Adams might suddenly stop working assuming Zohran can make it all the way through the general and into office.
as far as i am aware, the mayor is the commander in chief of local police and also determines their budget
If I was mayor of NYC, I would eliminate the budget to all existing departments, then create new departments with a fresh budget. The initial budget is for importing officers and administrators from Europe, sourced from nations that put them through a rigorous training academy that emphasizes deescalation and following laws. No existing personnel from the ranks of America's police would ever be hired.
Far as I am concerned, the police in America are a mafia, not keepers of peace. They have to be rooted out completely, if that is to change.
The potential is there, but usually winning one election is not enough to actually achieve structural change such as stopping racist police actions.
Are they still alive? Serious question
Winning lottery ticket?
Not anymore.
They're doing it to get them extraordinarily renditioned.
Is there an ordinary rendition?
It looks like they were expecting them.
Would someone care to explain why would they not show their ID? Is it better to get detained than showing your ID, unless you have something to hide?
Anyway, in my country we are required by law to show police officers our IDs when asked.
As an individual, its probably easier to just show ID, but as a society its a bad idea to let this become the norm. Because the next step is just checkpoints.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint#Military_use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_checkpoint
Very authoritarian. You shouldn't have to justify your existence, the government should be the ones with the burden to prove you did something wrong, you shouldn't need to prove your innocence.
It's literally a fourth amendment right. I'm not cool with any of my rights being infringed upon. No one should be ok with this.
As I said, I'm not from America, I wouldn't know your laws, that's why I'm asking
When assessing the degree and quality of liberty in a country, one of the factors considered in academic political science is the requirement of personal identification by law enforcement. It [used] to be a trope of Hollywood cinema that takes place in the Eastern Bloc (Warsaw Pact countries) that ordinary citizens and obvious tourists were routinely harassed by law enforcement for their papers, a stark reminder that here in the states you can even cross state lines without identifying yourself.
It's getting more interesting as law enforcement is pre-emptively collecting biometric data on school kids and other vulnerable demographics.
Currently wending through state courts is the controversy of using biometric data to identify suspects, which may be regarded as an [unreasonable] search from which we (all, citizens or otherwise) are supposed to be protected, according to the fourth amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
In this specific incident, the NYPD is notoriously racist and aggressive, so this may be contempt of cop while black As the adage goes, you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride. This assures these young men will have a bad week regardless of their guilt of any wrongdoing.
…it soon became evident that this net was cast too wide for any private agency. Not merely was my own mail opened, but the mail of all my relatives and friends—people residing in places as far apart as California and Florida. I recall the bland smile of a government official to whom I complained about this matter: "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear."
They know they're being racially profiled and didn't feel like playing along and making life easier for the cops.
As others have said we are not required to provide ID unless there is a cause. Stopping 2 people without stating why means no cause and they have the right to say no and it should end with ok have a nice day, but our rights are tested more and more. Some good news is its generally an easy case for a lawyer to pickup and win meaning they could get a payout from the city. The sad news is generally nothing will be done about the cops who abuse their job and cause the tax payers more money in lawsuits that should never happen.
What country do you live in?
Dumb question because we don't know these men and we can't answer for them. If you're really interested, look up the case and see if there's any news, they may have told their stories by now.
Because people want to be left alone without being harassed for no reason by dirty cops looking to increase their arrest stats and get more promotions.
It's awful not being left alone. For example, I know someone on lemmy who was viewing this sublemmy, didn't do anything, got banned, and was so upset he actually died. The point is, people should be able to be left alone and do what they fucking want people being assholes.
and then Lincoln bust out the closet and said see kids this is why acab and gave everyone fifty dollars
For example, I know someone on lemmy who was viewing this sublemmy, didn't do anything, got banned, and was so upset he actually died.
I smell BS.