Memes @lemmy.ml

8mo ago

Capitalism and fascism

213 comments

But the times are not tougher by themselves, they become tougher because of capitalism itself. So it was Homelander all along
- "I'm the natural evolution of unchecked you."
  
  Even checked Capitalism results in fascism, as Capitalism is entirely unsustainable and eventually results in the crisis that enables the rise of fascism.
- Fascism is simply the conclusion of capitalism. Antifa is a bunch of socialists because socialism is the only cure. Anticomm and Fascism have so much overlap as movements because they're the same movement. Even in the historical context of the first rise of fascism, who took the reins of power was people promising the capital holders they'd protect them from those scary laborers. And do you know what we don't talk about enough in America? We don't talk enough about why fascism didn't take hold here. Its because in the 1920s the capital holders had seen what would happen in America if they tried to do a fascism: the coal miners rose up in violent revolt. We had what legitimately qualified as a civil war in West Virginia with the labor movement. It's one of only two times american citizens on home soil have been bombed by an air force.
  My concern is this: we don't have enough people in this country right now who love their brethren enough to stand against fascism. I ask everyone to do this: look at the Black Lives Matter movement. Realize what the African American communities right next to you are doing to resist the police brutality they experience, the fascism they are already experiencing and resisting. Join them. Link arms with them. The reality is the antifascist movement in America is nothing new. How we prevent fascism from rising is we make sure the violent weirdos know we are many and they are few. Make sure they know they don't have the man power to take over

Fascism is simply Capitalism when the Capitalists succeed enough
- Not entirely.
  Germany wasn't having a very successful economy when Nazism started.
  Nor did Italy or Spain.
  
  That relies on the assumption that what's good for the economy is good for the capitalists, they always make sure that capitalism occasionally goes up in flames to take advantage of social unrest.
  
  That's the point.
  In Germany there was a battle between left and right back then. The economy boomed in the 20s and faltered in the 30s. Capitalists saw the threat of socialism looming just behind Poland and so they supported fascism.
  The Nazis funneled billions into large businesses. It was unsustainable and morally multi-level wrong, but they skimmed a lot of profits from these agreements. They got rich, while the economy started to collapse - even before the war.
  Even after the war, most of them got away. They kept much of their wealth.
  
  In fact, fascism often gains support from middle class desperation, with the blessing of the booj who prefer it over communism (which tends to rise from the lower classes during similar times of desperation)
- One is a form of economy, the other is an ideology of societal oppression. Fascist governments have run capitalist, communist, and socialist economies. Historically, more fascist governments have developed from socialist nations than capitalist. That doesn’t make fascism inherently socialist either.
  The meme would be more accurate in stating that fascism is a failure of democracy than capitalism.
  
  That's not really accurate, fascism is specifically a reactionary attempt to "turn the clock back" to "the good old days," it's focused on class colaborationism and nationalism.
  Fascism is wholly anticommunist.
  
  This is just false. There's no interpretation of 'communist economies' that applies to any fascist state ever. Two of the core characteristics of fascism are anti-liberalism and anti-Marxism, which covers basically all socialism. Fascist leaders (even the national-syndicalism types like Mussolini) have an odd relationship with capitalism, but ultimately I don't believe they moved towards socialism either.
  Historically, more fascist governments have developed from socialist nations than capitalist.
  Apart from Francoist Spain, I can't think of a single example of a fascist government which succeeded a socialist government.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements_by_country
  
  Interesting. I think you have a point.
  
  Fascism is inherently capitalist, the communist "version" is called national communism or national bolshevism

From the peanut gallery, aka me..... Most business are run under a more fascist principle.
I'm not talking about how the business operates in the market, or whatever.... I'm talking about internal organizational behaviour.
Things are often very "my way or the highway", with management, owners, etc.
Of course, not all businesses, but most follow some fairly fascist ideologies. They'll tell you where to be, what to bring, what to do, when to stop... And hey, where are your papers? .... I mean... Where is your company issued identification card?
They'll watch what you're doing, monitor and surveil you as much as they are legally allowed, govern every moment that they can, of every day you're working there.
Capitalism and the pursuit of profit is their objective, the governance is fascist.
Business leaders engage in fascism.
.... Why are we surprised that this brain rot is leaking out into actual politics? Trump is literally known for running businesses.... Mostly into the ground/bankruptcy, but still. His whole thing is him being the boss. The ruler and Lord dictator over his tiny island. How are we so surprised that he's a fascist? Shocked picachu
The best move the Nazis made was convincing everyone that yeah, the Nazis lost and are gone forever.... They're literally hiding in plain sight.
- It should be of little surprise (and much more widespread knowledge) that just about everyone with money in the 1930s financially supported the actual Nazi party, including but not limited to Henry Ford and George W Bush's grandfather.
  I actually disagree with the meme; capitalism is always fascism, just sometimes has a better PR team.
  
  sometimes with a better PR team
  Which is a big thing in The Boys. The company and The Seven™ are all about that PR.
- Businesses use feudalism, with the monarch (CEO), court (board), and several levels of lords and vassals.
  
  Wasn't fascism modelled after early feudalism?
  There were obvious differences, fascism has more nationalism and racism, IMO, but at the core, aren't they extremely similar?
  I'm no expert on either. I just know enough to get myself into (and hopefully out of) trouble in these discussions.
- That's not what fascism is. Fascism isn't "when there are shitty strict rules". In fact, classical fascism is a (failed) class collaborationist ideology where the state was supposed to mediate between interest groups of workers and bosses. protip: it didn't. workers got screwed. (see corporatism, from the root word corpus, not corporation). Nazism didn't do any of that but even they had their own garbage state-run labor front.
  But the point being, those business are beyond even fascism. It's straight-up pure raw capitalist dictatorship.

More like fascism is just what comes next after late stage capitalism if it makes it that far.
Don’t worry, feudalism is still the end game.
- I'm looking forward to being called Dennis and working in the mud all day ranting about different governments.
  
  Excuse me, old woman!
  
  There's some lovely filth down here!

Also a result of the inevitable decline of Capitalism and Imperialism, which is what we are seeing in America, a desparate and incorrect ploy to "turn the clock back" to the "good old days."
It can't be beaten electorally, it will remain until it either succeeds or Capitalism itself is escaped and we transition to Socialism.
- I don't see a decline in US capitalism or (US-style) imperialism anytime soon. It seems extremely well positioned to continue to be the #1 world power and influencer, even if its regional political and economic influence wanes a bit. US foreign policy is that of a bully in the sandpit who breaks any toy denied to him. Domestically, from the outside it looks like an absolute shitshow, with the masses cheering with hysteric enthusiasm as they are thrown one by one to the lions.
  
  US influence is waning, and the Global South is throwing off the shackles of the US. It won't happen immediately, but with weakening Imperialism will come weakening domestic conditions until it cannot be sustained any longer.
  
  Mate we're extremely in debt trying to get Iraq and Iran to bend the knee like all the other countries we've imperialized and not only is it not working, it looks like its never going to work. In the 1950s we held 50% of the worlds wealth. Not only will there be a decline in the near future, the decline has been going on for 30 years

I actually watches the first season of the boys recently. Killer show. Its stunning that any real person could have ever looked up to Homelander in any capacity.
- Oh, believe it or not, that gets even worse! Some people are insane.
- The most recent season has a surprising amount of sexually assaulting Huey though. The first time they even play it for laughs.

ToUgH tImEs BrEeD ToUgH mEn
- God I hate that so much! Yes Brady, you are the tough guy who will safe us all while being afraid of plant based food and pronouns.

Fun fact: The nowadays conservative (and IMO right leaning) German CDU has originally considered capitalism to be the reason for outbreak for WW2. They wanted to form a new Christian Socialism, which would've united Christian ideals with a socialistic (not marxistic) economy. The so-called Kölner Erklärung was written in 1945 as a basic idea for where Germany should head from perspective of the CDU.
These ideas didn't last for long and got replaced by a conservative fiscal policy. But it is good to keep in mind that even in the CDU there were people who recognized that capitalism ultimately has a strong tendency to fuel fascism. In Nazi Germany, the main capitalists worked closely with the NSDAP - Krupp, Bosch, Hugo Boss (who famously designed the Nazi uniforms), Volkswagen were all lead by rich capitalists who saw (and gained) profit by the actions of the Nazis. It makes me sad that even the SPD, the so-called Social Democratic Party, long forgot what it means to fight for socialism and equality, and instead embraces neoliberalism with a touch of social politics.
- It makes so much more fundamental sense for the followers of Jesus to embrace socialist values as opposed to the tendency of Christians to follow both conservative and capitalistic politics.
  I'm an atheist but I was raised Christian Catholic and the stark contrast between the religious texts and parables with the actions of the average Christian or the Church was a great contributor to my rejection of religion. I still see value in some of the teachings (be nice to others, people before material things) and always took them closer to socialism values than the Supply Side Jesus right-leaning Christians adopted.
  
  Same. I always wondered how ideas like giving what you can, loving thy neighbour, and forgiveness to the extreme somehow results in Supply Side Jesus, "Protestant work ethic", jail time for addictions, "law and order" politics, etc..
  These people have strayed so far from the teachings and I'm not sure how they can claim to follow them and then blame homeless people for being homeless.
- ~~Bose~~ Hugo Boss
  
  Thank you, is corrected :)

Dont forget the red scare whenever capitalism even thinks about faltering to remind us all of the evils of just giving hungry people food or letting them see a doctor.

Dam, i fully slept on The Boys. Thoughts its just a Watchmen 'supers in real life' rip off. First season on par with Breaking Bad for me
- It's brilliant IMO (I haven't seen the latest season but the one before ... season 3 did feel like it was losing its way a bit).
  The thing with mainstream super hero stuff is that it seems to very much about supporting the status quo without really examining it. Generally, the MCU has been pretty guilty of this AFAICT. It's also why Winter Soldier is probably the best MCU film IMO ... Captain America becomes "the enemy" by standing up for his principles and destroys shield.
  The Boys is about examining the status quo and so stands out massively compared to all of the other mainstream superhero stuff.
- It's just too fucking dark for me. I don't dislike a gritty show necessarily but I couldn't make it through more than the first few episodes. It seemed good, but damn I have plenty of problems and shittiness in my real life, I like my entertainment to make me feel better, not worse. 😀
  
  Same. I like dark stories as much as the next person, but it hit way too close to home with real world politics for me.
- Imo the second season gets even better, I'm obsessed rn
- It doesn't really hold it's quality. Season 3 gets more about the shock humor than the story.

superman would obliterate homelander
- Yeah just pour a jug of milk out and homelander dies

"Who are you?"
"I'm you if Batman didn't have a ring what makes you a removed ass"

One's an economic school of thought, the other a political one, so obviously you can have both at the same time or even working together. Coincidentally corporate business is mostly anti-fascist right now because social diversity and progressiveness is where the money's at
I can only guess you've used one of the words out of context. If it was fascism, I have nfi what the meme is trying to say by linking Superman to capitalism in the same way Homelander is easily linked with fascism.
If the joke instead about fascism, then maybe something positive and relatable to it would make sense. Patriotism is what I think of since Superman loves America, but shows little concern for anyone else and this sentiment could start festering domestically, especially if the love for country becomes ultra-nationalistic.
- There is a saying, something along the lines of 'politics is the shadow that economics casts over society'. Now obviously there is no one to one correlation between a country's economic and political systems, but rich people often respond to calls for economic reform by trying to make the public fight among themselves. Fascism is one possibility, 'culture war' is another, bread and circuses a third, and so on.
  
  Trying to think of that one time fascism was economically beneficial to capitalists... Nope. I can't recall one.
  Edit: Oh, wait. If you were supplying a side against fascism, it's always been very beneficial. I know that's in contrast to the meme, but supports your point in a "round peg; square hole" kinda way.

This meme's got the spirit, but not a great visual metaphor
- Why ?
  
  Both images should be homelander.

What a crossover that would be
Homelander V Superman
- Snyder's Superman is more insufferable than Homelander
- Depends on the writer. You get a superman DC writer, homelander probably gets treated like every other fascist superman beats up. If it's a "the boys" writer, homelander probably uses kryptonite to rip superman in half in a graphic full-page spread or some shit. You're also gonna be dealing with, are we dropping superman into the relatively hopeless universe of the boys, are we dropping homelander into the DC universe, where he'll probably be right st home with like 30 different characters almost exactly like him, will we come up with some portal stuff, what's going on there
  So I dunno, depends on the writer. Ke personally I'd prefer if superman won, cause it's more hopeful and less garth ennis-y.

And unregulated hyper-capitalism is what happens when communism fails
- Yes, sadly. During the dissolution of the USSR, millions of people died, literacy rates plumetted, safety nets were plundered by opportunistic Capitalists, and the State was sliced up and sold for parts. This privitization was a disaster for the common worker.
  
  I’m sure after decades of capitalism they are doing fine now.. right?! Oh no
- Yes, which is why it is important to protect communist projects from capitalist backed coups, like the presidential coup that illegally and undemocratically dissolved the USSR
  
  Quite funny of you to mention undemocratic in the context of the USSR, as if it had been a democracy even one day of its existence. And about illegal, most of the times a country and its constitution is absolved its technically illegal. I can only think of the German constitution that actually has clauses on how to legally phase it out.

That's so accurate.

Surely it was a tough pick between using Superman or Captain America in the top panel.

Are there any examples of Open market capitalist countries becoming Fascist dictatorships?

Russia has had a tough ride since 90ties of the last century which is pretty much explained by this.
- Bro, they’ve had a tough time since like...the entirety of their history.
- More like since 1924
  
  There was a drastic drop in life expectancy, housing rates, lots of starvation and excess deaths, and drops in literacy rates and so forth following the collapse of the USSR. The rise of the USSR was a drastic improvement upon Tsarism, and the fall of the USSR was a drastic decrease.
  The USSR absolutely had its own set of issues, but the collapse of the USSR in the early 90s represented a massive setback that only recently the Russian Federation has begun to overtake, metric-wise.

It will get way worse from there.

Capitalism is a form of economic organization, fascism is a form of government (or just a form of social control), antithetical to democracy or socialism.
- You can't separate economic structures from State structures. Fascism is specifically a far-right entrenchment of Capitalism as a response to Capitalist decay.
- yeah its totally just a crazy coincidence that fascism only arises in capitalist countries and that it does so when capitalism is facing a crisis, Im sure that the fact that the word privatization was coined to describe nazi economics is also just a coincidence, and certainly pinochet making all his economic policy based on the recommendation of the Chicago school of economics is also just a coincidence. The nazis giving medals to renowned pile of sub-human garbage and of course capitalist hero henry ford most also be just a coincidence. At every turn the fascists make it clear that they are capitalist and yet libs are so fucking deluded that they cant even recognize their own allies in the maintenance of capitalism.

This applies to literally every form of government.
- No, you stupid western swine. That's just westoid propaganda!
  However I, too, wasn't aware China's historic fascism problem was the result of capitalistic woes.
  Everyday i learn new facts from .ml, like China invented capitalism (take THAT, Sumer!!1).

I think a big issue is that people call things that are not capitlatist "capitalist". The US is called capitalist, but it has the largest government in the history of the world, that is not capitalism.
- Capitalism cannot exist without a government. Capitalism reaching the stage where large Capitalists wield the State both domestically and internationally to fuel their profits does not make it no longer Capitalist, that's like saying a tree isn't a plant because it is no longer a seed.
- Please read Wealth of Nations, and A Theory of Moral Sentiments. Adam Smith clearly laid out what capitalism is, and you have no clue what that word means.
  
  Cool, what part did I miss? Also Adam Smith died hundreds of years ago, so I am not sure why he would be the go to for this.
- Capitalism is a system of economics. It can exist with or without a government also existing.
  
  Capitalism cannot exist without a government of some sort, as Private Property Rights are only legitimized by the threat of violence.
  
  I agree, but the bigger the government the less capitilism there is because they are controlling the system. I am not saying its good or bad, but the economic system is highly controlled.
- Yet lobbyists exist. Every single government official is sponsored by companies via super PACs
  
  Yes exactly, those lobbyists exist because there is a huge amount of power to take so they can control us.

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