Why are doctors so hands off and unhelpful in the USA?

Capitalism.

Healthcare and insurance are for profit industries and the corporations running the healthcare and insurance business don’t give a fuck about the health of the patients. They want all the monies and want to move patients through as quickly and cheaply as possible to maximize their profits.

• Too many patients, not enough doctors.
• Private insurance and intrusive controlling software: the doctor is limited in what they are allowed to prescribe, they have to check all sorts of boxes, and they have complex computer forms to fill out. They are too busy with the laptop to have much attention left for patients.
• Non-compliant patients who "do their own research" on the internet.

Most doctors I know don't even want to go to a doctor. They know all the providers are shit talking their patients and just doing the best they can in a very broken system.

Late stage capitalism and medical misinformation have made the doctor-patient relationship almost adversarial.

Because medical care in the US places profit over people

When you go to a doctor in the USA, you're really being treated by their lawyer and insurance company.

They're paid by the job, not by the hour.

IOW they get paid a fee for the visit, a fee for any tests, etc.

Thank modern insurance for that.

They do not get paid any extra to have a conversation with you or to spend actual time with you to discuss whatever issues you are facing. I think the caveat is more that the GP/PCP is more likely to speed by you as they've got 20 more patients to see that day and a specialist will probably spend more time with you because they're only trying to work on one issue rather than deal with weird pains, blood tests, talk to you about your weight, etc...

Not a doctor and just talking out my ass, but I'm assuming part of it has to do with patient workloads and dealing with insurance companies, they're just not incentivized to really take any time with patients, just get 'em through the visit, check whatever boxes they need to, and move on.

But yeah, I very much have had the same experience for the past 10 years or so with my same doctor, it just feels absolutely useless going to them for anything. It takes alot for me to go to the doctor for anything or to bring anything up even with the doctor if it's not life-threatening. I'm not a hypochondriac by any stretch, I just try to keep an eye out on my health and if I notice my body doing something out of the ordinary, I just ask about it to see if it means anything.

Before my regular check-up though I'll kind of bank up whatever questions or oddities that I've noticed, things that I figure I can bring up and see if maybe it's a sign of one thing or another. Most of the time when I mention anything though, it just feels like the doctor is blowing me off, or he'll just give a guess, maybe google it and show some pictures. At best he might tell me something like, "Hmmm, well it's probably not cancer." and then just sort of shrug and move on. I'm a guy, so I'm used to no one caring about my health or well-being at all, but I think I had a different image in my head when I was a kid about what it was doctors actually did.

The one regular benefit I see from going to the doctor is getting my blood drawn and being able to track health numbers from that, my job does the same thing too, so I get two sets of numbers from my blood work every year and I track it to see overall condition of my health, which I kind of wish was something my doctor did. He'll mostly just comment the most obvious thing possible when the test results come in, but there's never a look at health numbers over time, which is why I started just tracking it on my own.

This is just over generalization of your experience.

A primary care doctor should ask questions like if you are stressed out as it affects your life but they are not going to have a long non-medical related conversation because you are no longer a kid and also they won’t remember you until you go back the next time so why waste time when they can see other patients, unless it’s a psychiatrist. The questionnaire they have has all the required medical questions.

Doctors aren’t out to get your money. You don’t even pay them directly. Blame the health insurance companies for that. If they did want to take your money wouldn’t they make you do more tests and take more of your money? There are a lot of ways to get your money apart from anesthesia.

Maybe there is a different medical reason but it is certainly not to just to make your pay for anesthesia. I’m not in a medical field so I can’t into those details. However, I had some oral surgery and I refused anesthesia as I could handle the pain and didn’t want to pay more money. The surgeon didn’t force it on me. I’m not sure where you live but I hadn’t heard that we are forced to take anesthesia when it might not be required as it has its own risk. Why would the hospital risk that? Just to make more money when they can just order other non-risky expensive tests?

To start off, I'm sorry to hear that you're not receiving the healthcare you need. I recognize that these words on a screen aren't going to solve any concrete problems, but in the interest of a fuller comprehension of the USA healthcare system, I will try to offer an answer/opinion to your question that goes into further depth than simply "capitalism" or "money and profit" or "greed".

What are my qualifications? Absolutely none, whatsoever. Although I did previously write a well-received answer in this community about the USA health insurance system, which may provide some background for what follows.

In short, the USA healthcare system is a hodge-podge of disparate insurers and government entities (collectively "payers"), and doctors, hospitals, clinics, ambulances, and more government entities (collectively "providers"), overseen by separate authorities in each of the 50 US States, territories, tribes, and certain federal departments (collectively "regulators"). There is virtually no national-scale vertical integration in any sense, meaning that no single or large entity has the viewpoint necessary to thoroughly review the systemic issues in this "system", nor is there the visionary leadership from within the system to even begin addressing its problems.

It is my opinion that by bolting-on short-term solutions without a solid long-term basis, the nation was slowly led to the present dysfunction, akin to boiling a frog. And this need not be through malice or incompetence, since it can be shown that even the most well-intentioned entities in this sordid and intricate pantomime cannot overcome the pressures which this system creates. Even when there are apparent winners like filthy-rich plastic surgeons or research hospitals brimming with talented expert doctors of their specialty, know that the toll they paid was heavy and worse than it had to be.

That's not to say you should have pity on all such players in this machine. Rather, I wish to point to what I'll call "procedural ossification", as my field of computer science has a term known as "protocol ossification" that originally borrowed the term from orthopedia, or the study of bone deformities. How very fitting for this discussion.

I define procedural ossification as the loss of flexibility in some existing process, such that rather than performing the process in pursuit of a larger goal, the process itself becomes the goal, a mindless, rote machine where the crank is turned and the results come out, even though this wasn't what was idealized. To some, this will harken to bureaucracy in government, where pushing papers and forms may seem more important that actually solving real, pressing issues.

I posit to you that the USA healthcare system suffers from procedural ossification, as many/most of the players have no choice but to participate as cogs in the machine, and that we've now entirely missed the intended goal of providing for the health of people. To be an altruistic player is to be penalized by the crushing weight of practicalities.

What do I base this on? If we look at a simple doctor's office, maybe somewhere in middle America, we might find the staff composed of a lead doctor -- it's her private practice, after all -- some Registered Nurses, administrative staff, a technician, and an office manager. Each of these people have particular tasks to make just this single doctor's office work. Whether it's supervising the medical operations (the doctor) or operating/maintaining the X-ray machine (technician) or cutting the checks to pay the building rent (office manager), you do need all these roles to make a functioning, small doctor's office.

How is this organization funded? In my prior comment about USA health insurance, there was a slide which showed the convoluted money flows from payers to providers, which I've included below. What's missing from this picture is how even with huge injections of money, bad process will lead to bad outcomes.

Source

In an ideal doctor's office, every patient that walks in would be treated so that their health issues are managed properly, whether that's fully curing the condition or controlling it to not get any worse. Payment would be conditioned upon the treatment being successful and within standard variances for the cost of such treatment, such as covering all tests to rule out contributing factors, repeat visits to reassess the patient's condition, and outside collaboration with other doctors to devise a thorough plan.

That's the ideal, and what we have in the USA is an ossified version of that, horribly contorted and in need of help. Everything done in a doctor's office is tracked with a "CPT/HCPCS code", which identifies the type of service rendered. That, in and of itself, could be compatible with the ideal doctor's office, but the reality is that the codes control payment as hard rules, not considering "reasonable variances" that may have arisen. When you have whole professions dedicated to properly "coding" procedures so an insurer or Medicare will pay reimbursement, that's when we've entirely lost the point and grossly departed from the ideal. The payment tail wags the doctor dog.

To be clear, the coding system is well intentioned. It's just that its use has been institutionalized into only ever paying out if and only if a specific service was rendered, with zero consideration for whether this actually advanced the patient's treatment. The coding system provides a wealth of directly-comparable statistical data, if we wanted to use that data to help reform the system. But that hasn't substantially happened, and when you have fee-for-service (FFS) as the base assumption, of course patient care drops down the priority list. Truly, the acronym is very fitting.

Even if the lead doctor at this hypothetical office wanted to place patient health at the absolute forefront of her practice, she will be without the necessary tools to properly diagnose and treat the patient, if she cannot immediately or later obtain reimbursement for the necessary services rendered. She and her practice would have to absorb costs that a "conforming" doctor's office would have, and that puts her at a further disadvantage. She may even run out of money and have to close.

The only major profession that I'm immediately aware of which undertakes unknown costs with regularity, in the hopes of a later full-and-worthwhile reimbursement, is the legal profession. There, it is the norm for personal injury lawyers to take cases on contingency, meaning that the lawyer will eat all the costs if the lawsuit does not ultimately prevail. But if the lawyer succeeds, then they earn a fixed percentage of the settlement or court judgement, typically 15-22%, to compensate for the risk of taking the case on contingency.

What's particularly notable is that lawyers must have a good eye to only accept cases they can reasonably win, and to decline cases which are marginal or unlikely to cover costs. This heuristic takes time to hone, but a lawyer could start by being conservative with cases accepted. The reason I mention this is because a doctor-patient relationship is not at all as transactional as a lawyer-client relationship. A doctor should not drop a patient because their health issues won't allow the doctor to recoup costs.

The notion that an altruistic doctor's office can exist sustainably under the FFS model would require said doctor to discard the final shred of decency that we still have in this dysfunctional system. This is wrong in a laissez-faire viewpoint, is wrong in a moral viewpoint, and is wrong in a healthcare viewpoint. Everything about this is wrong.

But the most insidious problems are those that perpetuate themselves. And because of all those aforementioned payers, providers, and regulators are merely existing and cannot themselves take the initiative to unwind this mess, it's going to take more than a nudge from outside to make actual changes.

As I concluded my prior answer on USA health insurance, I noted that Congressional or state-level legislation would be necessary to deal with spiraling costs for healthcare. I believe the same would be required to refocus the nation's healthcare procedures to put patient care back as the primary objective. This could come in the form of a single-payer model. Or by eschewing insurance pools outright by extending a government obligation to the health of the citizenry, commonly in the form of a universal healthcare system. Costs of the system would become a budgetary line-item so that the health department can focus its energy on care.

To be clear, the costs still have to be borne, but rather than fighting for reimbursement, it could be made into a form of mandatory spending, meaning that they are already authorized to be paid from the Treasury on an ongoing basis. For reference, the federal Medicare health insurance system (for people over 65) is already a mandatory spending obligation. So upgrading Medicare to universal old-people healthcare is not that far of a stretch,

Finding a good physician is as difficult as finding a good romance or a good therapist. You need to shop around to find the right fit. After years of struggling with horrible Healthcare I finally found the perfect fit - a middle aged lesbian Nurse Practitioner working out of a health center that caters to lower income folks and the LGBTQ community. Every time I go in we chit chat for a few minutes, then she spends at least half an hour with me going through all of my concerns. She's very thorough and has made a dramatically positive experience in my health. I can even shoot her an email any time and she gets back to me within a day.

I think it helps that the health center's board of directors is entirely staffed by the physicians working there, overseen by an elderly doctor who spent his entire career helping the needy in his community.

Keep trying. It's frustrating, but the right fit is out there.

the united states is addicted to litigation. something that goes wrong is always someone elses responsibility and they will pay.

if a kid breaks their arm at school way too many humans decide 'that school was negligent, no matter what the circumstances' and they sue instead of collectively realizing kids do stupid things, and get hurt sometimes. this leaves school districts banning things like 'tag'. banning being children

its the same nonsense with doctors. theyve been sued into seclusion of anything they arent explicitly required to do.

the insurance industry has a hand in managing doctors time also... theyre basically given zero time to work with patients or they cant make enough money to stay in business.

health insurance companies only profit when human beings suffer

I’ve also been through at least several primary care physicians because the ones I have seen are so short and don’t really take time to get to know you at all. They just pop in, ask you a handful of questions and leave, if your test results come back with anything abnormal, they say it’s nothing to worry about, they don’t want to take any extra time to help look into anything or diagnose you… like wtf?

Because we're not people to them. They're incentivized to treat us like cars. Repair as fast and as many as you can to get the most money.

Doctors are not individual practitioners and cannot normally decide to go off on their own doing a procedure that they were not specifically trained to do (doctors are trained in procedures during their residency and in CTE). Unless they are offered a course in this new method, the hospital would not authorize them to perform that new procedure. The best way to get this care would be to travel or to lobby the hospital to train staff on this new methodology.

I've only tangentially heard about this, but another issue is that doctors in the US don't have to, and aren't encouraged to keep up with recent research.

Combine that with a medical education system that hasn't changed drastically in 70 years to keep up with that new research and most US doctors are just out of date.

The medical industry and the insurance industry are locked in a battle for money, and you don’t have a lot of say in it. I used to run an ambulance service. Let’s discuss.

If I took you to the hospital, and you were on medicare, there was a fixed rate to pick you up and a per mile rate. I got paid part by the government and part by the patient, who I was legally required to bill. If I failed to adequately bill the patient (10% or so), if I lied on the parts and mileage, silver bracelets and court time. We loved billing care/caid, because it was a fixed price, and we knew the payer of 90% paid regularly.

If you have private ambulance transport, you have no idea what you’ll get. The patient can have a $13,000 deductible, a 50% copay, and. $20,000 per-event cap. There’s no rule what a reasonable bill can be. The insurance company is trying to rig the game so the patient pays most of the bill while paying that sweet monthly premium at the same time. The ambulance is trying to be reimbursed for the time and materials. The red states opened the door for the patients to again be uninsured and pay you $0 for everything. So bills have to be high, to ensure some money comes in from insurance, to insure things can keep running. I would have loved to have a country of all care/caid and it be illegal to live there otherwise. They’d be the best cared for poor and old people in the world, getting quality care backed by the “only if you’re poor or old” US single-payer system.

But we have what we have, and it’s been well sold to enough clueless people that it’s here to stay.

The US healthcare system is built around money and profit. A cheaper procedure which does not require general anaesthetic costs less, and reduces profit. That can be beneficial to the providers but bloat is incentivised in the US healthcare system as providers battle with insurance companies for money. Crudely healthcare providers don't care about saving you money; they want to take as much money as they can get.

Meanwhile, countries with tax funded health care opt for the most cost effective procedures, investigations and treatments. The incentive is to reduce costs and offer the most effective things to the most people possible. That can also sometimes have negative side effects if not carefully regulated but in such systems generally Doctors advocate for the best procedure and best medical practice, as they themselves do not directly benefit financially from which procedure is pushed. The downside is you do get the opposite side of things where patients are dissuaded from things as they're not deemed cost effective by those who control the spending.

Our Healthcare system is fucked. You really need to be your own advocate and do your own double-checking. Think about how many people are bad at their jobs, and realize that plenty of those people are doctors.

I find a young doctor in a suburb almost 10 years ago. He's been great and he listens to me, has no problem taking my suggestions into consideration, and he often admits when he doesn't know something and will literally Google it right there in the room. It took as while to find someone I like, but it was worth looking.

I'm sorry you've gone through this, but I am also an American suffering from the same issues as you, and I have found no shortage of ENTs willing to shove the camera down my nose. That seems to be what they always recommend straight from the get-go.

why you have to be completely sedated and pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for expensive anesthesia

I've got this one, my dude. It's because American healthcare is mercenary and broken. When I had, um, a similar 'retroscopic' test from the other end, I was under a general, needed a buddy at the end, out for a few hours, etc; seems to be about the same.

Cost: $0

Premiums/subscription: $0

Material costs: $0 also

Like, I pay my income tax and the healthcare is just what's there -- we run it on income tax only, and before covid it was apparently funded adequately. Yeah, we're short on doctors right now as many of them left the field because of aggressive 'mah raghts' hillbillies whipped into a frenzy by the conservatives, but they run the triage and they keep their appointments. It's so different from when I lived in 07974.

Australia checking in ... I feel similarly about the attitude of doctors and the type of care I receive. I don't have any amazing advice that you're not already following, but I'll regale you with my thoughts regardless...

About 18 months ago I developed a chronic health condition that I will need to manage for the rest of my life (hopefully several decades). In that time I've seen a myriad of medical professionals.

My first tip would simply be that if you're not satisfied with a doctor or specialist, your only recourse it to arrange to see another instead. Sometimes the advice / treatment prescribed will vary significantly, sometimes they just have a less punchable face.

As regards GPs, I've come to categorise them thusly: those that just prescribe meds without any conversation, those that try to manipulate you into wanting the meds they want to prescribe, and those that will have a conversation with you about what meds you ought to take. Obviously this last category is the one you want.

Finally, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of simply staying on top of all the data about me. I have all my test results available on my phone, as well as medications, dates of treatments, contact details for specialists, et cetera. Also just understanding the available treatments.

I'm not in the USA but this trend is also happening in other countries. I guess USA feels it more because of the already punitive health system.

I've been thinking in recent times about pharmacies. 20 odd years ago, pharmacies used to deal with things too severe to put off, maybe not severe enough to see a doctor for. Now pharmacies are about "wellness" which is marketing crap to make more money. Middle aged woman feeling unwell? Cut your hair short and dye it 3 different colours. You'll look young and feel young! But they're still unwell and still have sore joints etc. Pretty depressing to think about.

U. S. medicine is corporatized. You are visiting a corporate store front, not a doctor's office.

If you want personalized medicine from doctors who give a shit, you'll either need to find a small clinic that gives a shit or you'll need to get your procedures done for cash while on vacation in Europe.

Medical tourism can sometimes be the same price (including travel) as staying in the U.S and dealing with insurance.

Ask the doctors who moved out of their home states instead of risking being jailed for "performing an abortion" when they were doling out life-saving medicine.

My doctors have been incredible, at least those I've had for the past 4 years or so. Including my gastro.

They take the time to talk to me, they remember who I am, and my gastro is even a direct recommendation from my primary doctor (my gastro is his gastro).

I've been going to gastroenterologists for literally decades, the one I got a couple years ago is the first to finally find the issue, and I've been reflux free. I doubt he'd do a transnasal either - its more limited in scope (hah!), you're only getting part of what an endoscopy can do. That's why its not transnasal endoscopy, its transnasal esophagoscopy.

And that's probably why. Why they wouldn't just say that, I don't know. There are lots of places that will do transnasal esophagoscopy throughout the US, so it isn't a procedure that is just "not done here" or anything, its not as popular in general because its just not as thorough of a procedure.

I hope you find a doctor in the future that takes the time to explain things though.

Edit: Forgot to mention, the hospital system by me is a non profit. Only differentiator I am aware of, and its a great hospital system.

Just fyi, the sedation is usually not medically necessary. I have had it (as well as a colonoscopy) done without, just got a spray to numb the throat for a short while. It’s not pleasant, but I found it bearable and it’s much nicer to just walk out and drive home on your own. If necessary I could still have told/signaled that I want sedation after all during the procedure. Propofol works within less than a minute. In that case they would have called someone to pick me up.

That said, I do live in Germany, so money does not play as big a role as in the US when it comes to healthcare. And the doctors and their staff were exceedingly nice and caring.

Maybe, if you believe you can bear it, and if acid reflux does not make it painful, ask to do it without sedation next time.

I’m lucky to have “inherited” my parents’ doctor. She is extremely compassionate and gets deeply involved in you and your concerns on every visit. So much so that she is infamous for being behind schedule, to the point where we fully expect to wait for an hour to see her after the scheduled appointment time. She makes up for it by talking with you for as long as you want.

She also hasn’t accepted new patients for like 4 years… so yeah, I guess all the good ones are taken.

Judging from my own doctors experience, they are way overbooked. Can’t get a personal experience when they gotta see a couple dozen more people the same day.

Afaik it has to do with licensing regulations and litigations...

A doctor is licensed to practice by the state, and must carry insurance on a state-by-state basis to acquire a license to practice.

The problem is that if you get sued 3 times you get blackballed by the insurance industry in your state and the insurance companies won't insure you.

You see a lot of doctors moving states often, its often because they became un-licensable in their former areas.

I have limited industry experience and have talked to quite a few doctors who were indeed a bit distant and hands-off in their practice for this reason alone.