1 yr. ago • 98%

USA: Court rules automakers can record and intercept owner text messages

therecord.media Court rules automakers can record and intercept owner text messages

A Seattle-based appellate judge ruled that the practice does not meet the threshold for an illegal privacy violation under state law, handing a big win to automakers Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and General Motors.

78 comments

This makes perfect sense to me. If you plug your phone in to your car and give it permission to access all your shit, then it will access all your shit, and store it locally so that it doesn't have to re-download all your shit every time. If you don't want your car to do that, then don't plug in your phone and give it permission to do that.

Having said that, it is terrifying how much of our personal data modern cars collect. We should be fighting that, but this specific case was not the way to do that.

82
- The article specifically mentions this which implies that it's stored on the car.
  
  Berla’s software makes it impossible for vehicle owners to access their communications and call logs but does provide law enforcement with access
  
  But it's immediately followed up with
  
  Many car manufacturers are selling car owners’ data to advertisers as a revenue boosting tactic
  
  Pretty much all new cars being sold today, most cars in the last 5 years, and a large percentage of cars sold in the last 10 all have some sort of cellular modem that reports back to home base with all sorts of info, then they turn around and sell it. GM has been doing this for 20+ years at this point with on star which is included in almost every car they've made.
  
  79
  
  Sure, but from what I'm seeing, the article wasn't about them selling it. It was about them storing it, which only happens after you plug your phone in and agree to their terms.
  
  -11
- Your logic holds true as long as that data stays in the car. Pretty sure this ruling allows them to slurp that data up and use it however they want.
  
  56
  
  They would do that? Just copy all our data and use it for their own interests?
  
  I'm shocked, shocked I say!
  
  22
  
  Dont give them that information in the first place.
  
  -4
- I disagree. I want every interaction to be processed individually and iteratively. I look forward to my stereo turning into a BOOM box.
  
  4
- Seriously, these cases seem like giant nothingburgers.
  
  Did you expect that your car wouldn’t have your text message when it’s displaying it on the screen or reading it out loud?
  
  Now, is there malicious intent? Can they be retrieved by technicians at the dealership if your phone isn’t plugged in? Is it forwarding them back to Honda Corporate or Zuck himself? If so, that’s a significant problem that would probably belong to Android Auto and Apple CarPlay…they should be storing them encrypted and only be able to decrypt them when the phone is connected. But I don’t see any mention of that in the article.
  
  -22
  
  I expect to have access to all of my data that the system retains. I expect them to not share my text messages with anyone else. I expect to have the ability to manually delete data.
  
  I prefer that it doesn't retain information any longer than I have use for it.
  
  That's not asking much.
  
  27
  
  From the article (did you read it ?)
  
  "Many car manufacturers are selling car owners’ data to advertisers as a revenue boosting tactic, according to earlier reporting by Recorded Future News. "
  
  So yeah at least some of them collecting it are then selling it
  
  14
Oh nice, so people are spending $30,000 min on any new car AND it will record and pass on everything you do in it? Oh and depending on the car manufacturer you may have to pay a subscription for remote entry and heated seats. Its almost as if you are paying for something that you don't control, don't own and now works directly to steal information from you. Cool. Cool.

78
Fucking why? WHY IS IT OKAY TO SPY AND SNOOP?

52
- $$$$$$$$
  
  26
  
  Wouldn't it be cool if legislatures made decisions based on the constitution and ethics and weren't completely driven by corporate profits?
  
  22
- Because a billion people clicked "I Accept" over the past 20 years.
  
  3
  
  What they really clicked is "this is bullshit and I don't have time to read all of this, just to use something I paid for". If companies were required by law to distill their policies into plain English and short summaries then a lot fewer people would have clicked accept. But those ToS started out as nothing more than overly long liability waivers, and over the years the corporations started sneaking more and more exploitative language into them.
  
  2
What's the going rate on a horse and buggy these days?

50
- Permanently Deleted
  
  17
  
  A large chimp will actually produce something closer to one horsepower than those stupid overclocked horses.
  
  Also, they'll rip your face off, so win-win
  
  12
  
  Somewhere between one and two.
  
  5
- At one point I knew of some old order Amish who might sell you one with cocaine in the back. (They didn’t entirely adhere to traditions.)
  
  12
  
  Maybe cocaine in a horse buggy is basically the equivalent of a Nitrous Oxide system in a car with an ICE engine.
  
  3
  
  Is cocaine like nitrous for a buggy?
  
  2
- Those horses have great hearing too though.
  
  3
It sounds like someone needs to bring a similar suit in the EU and point to the GDPR. Where is the agreement to specific processing, the chance to opt out of the data collection, etc.

49
By design.

I have issue if they:

Collect unnecessary data if just used to read out messages, relay calls, or navigate

Store it in their cloud service (i.e. not local on the car)

Share it or sell it with other third parties

Cannot delete the data collected
35
- Clearly states in article owners can't delete data collected
  
  22
- They will say they won't but there's nothing stopping them. Isn't that the actual problem?
  
  19
  
  Yes, the problem is that there are no laws to stop them and now it was just officially made legal.
  
  19
Wild that your own text messages could be stored locally on your car but you have no access to the information

30
I think I'll continue sticking to "dumb" cars.. at least as much as they're available.

The "smart" fad can go fuck a duck.

29
- Or just don't connect your phone to it. That's what I do. I've never touched the "smart" screen in my car except to adjust the air conditioner.
  
  2
  
  Ugh, I also have a special hatred for touch screen anything in cars.
  
  Give me fucking knobs and buttons. I don't want to have to stop looking at the road while I drive a 1000kg death machine because I can't adjust the air con without looking.
  
  20
  
  Yes and you paid for that "smart" screen, and anyway does this stop the car from sending anything? No?
  
  You sure showed them, by not using the stuff you paid them for. Yeap.
  
  9
I guess someone should've presented the following situations to the court: some CEO of a small-medium company driving his Toyota sends a very important message regarding work. Toyota also gets to read it and is immediately aware of how that'll affect stock price. Time to gamble on the market, baby!

Situation 2: some researcher driving his Honda sends several files regarding a secret new product to his boss. Honda also gets to access the files and the content of the message. "Oh look, Honda released my product before me!"

Situation 3: After using the snooped information for self profit, the automaker sells it to 3rd parties for further profit.

28
Fuck that shit.

18
Probably a stupid question...

What about CarPlay and Android Auto? Is that being intercepted by the car manufacturer?

My basic understanding is Android Auto is pretty much an external monitor for your phone.

Edit: speeling irrers

18
- You got me curious as well so I googled it and it looks like CarPlay just uses the screen as a monitor with no messages or anything downloaded:
  
  https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252600482
  
  Now I wonder what kind of system these vehicles have that downloads text messages. Is that a function of the Bluetooth connectivity or is it a vendor application?
  
  18
  
  I connected Bluetooth to my car, and first thing it asked was if I wanted to allow access to my texts, call logs, and contacts.
  
  I admit, i think I did it once. It acted like it didn't work. Idk. It periodically still asks though. It doesn't do this if I connect my phone to the car through Andriod Auto.
  
  4
  
  I believe there’s also some dashboard touchscreens you can separately buy that use CarPlay.
  
  So for now, using one of those instead of the system built into the car is a potential way to circumvent automakers that are keeping your data/texts.
  
  At least if you want the benefits of using a dashboard touchscreen that your phone connects to.
  
  2
- I'm curious about this as well. I know my car can access phone records and contacts for Bluetooth calling outside of AA, but what about everything else? I also thought it was just an external monitor for all of my other apps.
  
  12
  
  That may be why GM is not going to be putting Car Play and Android Auto next year.
  
  6
  
  Definitely, forgot about that, calls do seem to go via the cars factory Bluetooth system. I can unplug my phone mid call and it jumps to the cars own call screen.
  
  So phone number, duration and possibly caller/contact name would be known by the factory headunit and any other information Bluetooth shares with the connect device.
  
  3
- I don't think the car manufacturer is getting that data, but iirc the part of Android Auto that runs on the head unit does collect data when disconnected, then send it to Google when the phone is connected.
  
  1
I got my ballot this Monday and half of the spots to be voted on had only one candidate.... maybe remove that shit from the ballot and add things like..."would you like Toyota to know where you are when you send emails about your period?" That would be useful.

17
- You'd think, but that's essentially the California proposition system, and it has significant downsides.
  
  4
  
  I'm in Washington State so I guess it is everywhere.
  
  2
  
  Care to elaborate on the significant downsides?
  
  2
Sick fucks.

17
For what it's worth my 2015 Toyota will allow me to connect over Bluetooth but in android I wouldn't give it permissions to my text message, just audio. It works fine except for the fact that every damn time I turn the car on it asks again for text message access and I have to click no on the infotainment screen.

16
Great 🤦‍♂️

13
First step of buying a car, find all antennas and replace them with dummy loads

12
Land of the free and privacy! The constitution and façade of good country presented through media just means they game optics to leech everyone, no matter citizens or the entire world.

11
Double you fucking tee eff? Holybonkerslaw Batman! Now what? Can Motorola take pictures of me while I take a shower watching porn?...err, sending emails?

7
Don't want to sound like a corporate shill, but this sounds necessary for handsfree functions. To read an incoming text read aloud, there would have to be a copy stored. If one was paranoid, they could just avoid pairing their phone.

2
- Washington Privacy Act (WPA).
  
  Plaintiffs’ operative complaint alleged that their vehicles’ infotainment systems download and permanently store all text messages and call logs from Plaintiffs’ cellphones without their consent.
  
  [...]
  
  The district court properly dismissed Plaintiffs’ claim for failure to satisfy the WPA’s statutory injury requirement. See WASH. REV. CODE § 9.73.060. To succeed at the pleading stage of a WPA claim, a plaintiff must allege an injury to “his or her business, his or her person, or his or her reputation.” Id. Contrary to Plaintiffs’ argument, a bare violation of the WPA is insufficient to satisfy the statutory injury requirement.
  
  9
  
  Brb, gonna wiretap the judge's house. It's not a crime as long as I don't act on the information I hear so there is no injury.
  
  9
I’m never ever ever going to buy a electric car as long this shit keeps hitting fp. My diesel does 1.18 liters (like amazing on murica meter) and I can drive 900 kns with 1 full tank and a 3 minute reload. I don’t know what they gave you to even consider the step to being electric, but a heavy pass from me.

-6
- You know this is about all cars right? Your diesel will also do this if new enough.
  
  15
  
  That's the neat part: my diesel car (I'm not the guy you replied to; I just also own one) is old.
  
  In fact, old diesels are actually better because the common-rail fuel pump and "clean diesel" bullshit on the newer ones makes them incompatible with >10% biodiesel. My car can actually be carbon-neutral (simply by putting B100 in it) because it's old!
  
  5

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