Meanwhile here in Germany I can use any bus, tram, U-Bahn, or train (excluding high speed) anywhere in the country for 58€/month
The DeutschlandTicket is the best thing! I love it. I want that with their Steuernummer, baby’s get a DeutschlandTicket. Everybody needs a DeutschlandTicket.
I've been wondering why this hasn't become a thing yet. Probably lobbying from all the Verkehrsverbünde.
It cost me about £60 for one return rail ticket last week 😭 that's not including the tube fare to get to the station.
Yep, train tickets are ridiculous here. It kills me on the inside whenever I have to go to London.
But if you don't have the D-ticket, good luck figuring out how the local ticketing machine works haha
Easy, just buy the ticket in DB Navigator
I want that in the Netherlands as well. Much smaller country, so less value for your money. But now you pay even more (€66) for a return ticket from the east border to the west border (Winterswijk - Scheveningen).
In SF its a hundred dollars a month, but you can only go to 4 stations in the city, so you end up paying regular fare on top of that all the time, and usless for commuters.
The busses frequently dont exist even though google and the signs say they should be arriving, so youre frequently an hour or more late because you had to get an uber because the bus never came.
If youre going to a connecting train or flight you need to leave hours early to account for delays.
bart is quite expensive, some people cant afford the muni fees, or dont want to so they just fare evade. the inspectors are extra aggressive in giving people the ticket, but many people will give fake details so it doesnt get sent thier house, NEVER give your ID that can identify you r personal details.
as long as there is no peace officer(police) you can just try to walk off the bus and exit on a stop they dont chase you. might be harder on a BART station though.
NYC is much more reasonable
Which 4 stations? Back when I was there before Covid I was paying the monthly bart card but I could go anywhere as long as it was Bart. Did that change?
Yeah with the 10 euro ticket.
No wonder Americans don't use public transit, even when the system exists it's ridiculously difficult and expensive to use.
Here is my daily commute to work:
The Public Transit option is literally greyed out, and Google goes “lmao get a fucking car, peasant.”
If I were going to minimize my car usage and strictly use public transit, it would be a ~20 minute bike ride (in the opposite direction of where I work) to the nearest bus station, to get to a public transit service that doesn’t even cover where I work. Then I’d take a bus to a train station, and ride it south through two cities. Then I’d make a transfer to a northern line, and ride it back north through those same two cities (and a third additional city) in order to get near another rail line. Then it would be another ~20 minute bike ride to transfer from one rail system to another, because the public transit in the southern cities doesn’t service the city where I work. Once I’m transferred to the service that covers where I work, it’s another ~20 minute rail ride, followed by a ~10 minute bike ride after getting off the train.
All in all, it would be about 2.5 hours of public transit riding, (and about an hour of riding my bike in +100°F/38°C weather), just to avoid driving 10 minutes. It would also require maintaining two separate transit passes, because the southern and northern transit systems don’t work with one another. Yeah, it’s no wonder I take my car to work.
10 minutes by car but 53 minutes by bike?? Do you live literally on the autobahn?
A lot of roads arent bike legal in America
I'm guessing the trains are in kind of a hub/spoke design and they live and work on different spokes which the transit system isn't designed to accommodate
May I ask how car is 10 minutes and bike 53? And walk over 2 hours? I ride the electric bike to work and it's about 10 minutes ride, vs 4 minutes by car, so roughly double. 20 minute walk, not brisk. It's hot here too, that's part of why I got the electronic bike, walking was making me arrive sweaty.
American roads rarely have sidewalks. You have to have a different route entirely.
70 MPH via car, vs… What, like 15 MPH on a bike? Also, there’s no way I’m riding my bike on a 70 MPH highway; I’d have to take a different (much longer) route entirely, just to avoid getting killed by a truck.
The routes are usually different for biking, walking, and driving. The speeds on the highway are also often several times the rate of speed you'll be able to achieve on an e-bike and certainly much higher than you'll be able to achieve on a manual bike.
Might be better getting a moped/motorcycle and taking the car route. It's more environmentally friendly than the car, anyway, but it doesn't take your entire day away from you.
That car route is likely on an interstate that mopeds can't ride on. Motorcycle is ok, but again, safety is a concern for a lot of people on an interstate.
Likely an alternative side road route but depending on the place that could literally be twice as long with all the red lights you hit on the stroads.
it’s great that it is more environmentally friendly but it is not worth the risk to your life
This is genuinely sufficient reason to not live there.
How many minutes would it be to cycle to work?
It's written on their gmaps screenshot: 53 mins.
As a counterpoint here is mine
Except way off peak it's faster to take bart than drive (north berkeley to downtown SF). I usually take a trans bay bus when going to office (closer to my house) which is $6 one way. BART is like $8. (So round trip under $20). Vs driving is $8 for the bay bridge and then somewhere between $20 and $60 to park for the day (no free parking at my office).
I feel your pain.
When I was in college, it was a 2mile bike ride to campus from my office campus housing, conversely it was a 6h Transit ride on buses metros and all sorts of stuff. The lack of lockers ment carrying several bags to and from school on a bike, which sucked. I ended up driving cuz it was easier.
2 miles? I almost biked that far to my primary school.
If you need to transport stuff, just get bags, that fit on the side if your bike.
Seems to be more of a problem of your city or township having just crappy public transit systems. A problem that most cities, and nearly all townships, in America share.
Why do Americans think everything has to profit?
Because that's the foundation and definition of capitalism. The market will provide (as long as there's profit to be made).
Not saying it's right though.
That's not the definition or foundation of capitalism, it's the definition of a market economy.
The foundation of capitalism is a system where investors can pool small amounts of money together on big projects, to share risk and reward. Historically to fund trading ships on their way to the indies.
So it destructures ownership, which has a million ripple effects on the organization and economy.
Not only must everything profit, it must profit MORE than it did previously. If you make $10 million selling widgets last year, and make $10 million again this year, well that's a failing business and you should be fired.
If you predict that your business will be up 5% this quarter, and it's only up 3%, that's considered a disaster, and the stock price will drop, and that CEO is still in trouble. Repeat every quarter.
I'm not seeing that in the OP
I just got to Panama City, buses are a flat $0.25 regardless of distance and the Metro is a flat $0.50 regardless of distance.
took the train for ~8 mi into town to get to my hotel for $0.50.
I'm in Mumbai. The 37km north-south journey from one end of the city to the other costs 20¢ on the local train. $1.20 if you want to ride the fancy train with AC. East-west is 13km and costs 50¢ on the elevated metro line.
Just think: the public transport system in the bay area is one of the better ones in the u.s.
Yoooo. I'm from Mumbai too. Did you check Aqua line metro?
I remember 5 rupee tickets on the Chennai Suburban.
Took a 3 day train in India from the south up to Nepal. I think it was $30
India trains are the best trains in the world.
Metro is $0.19 for me, so are trolleybuses. Our exchange rate is fucked, but hey, at least it makes it sound impressively cheap
transit fares are regressive taxes
I hear she's running for governor of California! That would be amazing. Fuck Newsom.
Good grief no....Porter is extremely car-brained. Her first run for office was based entirely on opposing the gas tax. She then went on to support some dumb freeway projects:
That's some light criticism considering the alternative is flirting with fascists. Newsom had Steve Bannon on the first episode of his podcast.
I'm not a huge fan of Porter. But between her and Kamala fucking Harris, whose big takeaway from the 2024 election seems to be "we didn't run far enough to the right..."
I'll admit I don't know much about her outside of those videos of her grilling CEOs when she was part of the Progressive Caucus. If she's as pro average citizen as she seems, she's better than most. What don't you like about her?
In Toronto, you get free transfers for 2 hours for $3. I can run an errand across the city and come back for a single fixed price.
I've never been to Toronto but I'll be there next week. Parking is a mess where I'm staying near downtown, I may use this!
Parking honestly isn't terrible but a lot of it is residency based, so yeah it's harder as a visitor. I think you can get a temporary visitor parking pass at City Hall depending on how long you're staying for.
For the TTC (titty sea!), download the Presto app ahead of time or buy a Presto card when you get here. Also be sure to check out the PATH!
You picked a lovely time to visit, the weather is wonderful right now! (Aside from the week of rain we just had)
Same in nyc. For $2.9.
I actually lived there for most of my life, NY's metro does not compare. Only in-station transfers are free, one every 2hr. If you need to transfer from the 2 to the C in Brownsville, godspeed. Half the time it charges you anyways when it's not supposed to. Don't get me started on the lack of connection between the G and Atlantic, and the non-existent M loop.
Toronto is still about 50 cents cheaper via the exchange rate. Transit is far more reliable, and the average subway station is waaaaay nicer.
Fuck the MTA
You only get unlimited transfers in NYC until you leave a station. You get 1 reentrance or switch to / from a bus per 2 hours.
it used to 90min for the longest time in sf, like decades. until recently.
Here in Kansas City our transit was free for the past four years.
The downer is that, since we subsidized the public transit here in the city, the various suburbs opted to stop funding the routes that went into their various towns and cities, so now fares are going to be re-introduced.
At least the streetcar is going to remain free here, for now, and likely through 2026 due to the World Cup.
Olathe and OP are two big reasons we can't have anything nice here. The streetcar is staying on the Missouri side only (at least for now) so I'm hopeful it'll stay free.
You're not wrong. Those two cities love their cars and their shitty chain stores.
goddamn you know you live in a fucked up society when the missouri side of your city is the more progressive.
When you have free public transport it ceases to be strictly public transport, and becomes half homeless shelter. No one wants to ride around with people who are all too often drug riddled, mentally ill, and just all around awful to be in an enclosed space with. I have sympathy for and want to help that demographic, but turning public transport into extremely expensive homeless day rooms ain't it.
Edit: down vote me all you like, free fares is an awful idea. If we want functional and useful public transport in this country we have to have it be safe and clean. I say this as someone who hasn't owned a personal auto in 12 plus years. I love and use public transport every day. Drug addled assholes are a problem.
Any critique of homeless people gets insta-downvoted unfortunately. The KC transit system, which I like, is rife with homeless people and many of them are visibly maladjusted and the people downvoting you would be instantly afraid of them. I've had one try to physically intimidate me, so now I carry a pocket stun-gun everywhere.
In fact, our streetcar is getting armed security guards because of said maladjusted homeless people.
Oh, I know.
That's partly why I carry a stun-gun everywhere now.
I once went through a BART gate line by mistake, I was trying to get to the trolley service and misread the signage. I immediately exited. The charge: $6.20. Still can’t believe it.
I did this once in Tokyo, besides a stern looking at I didn't have to pay anything.
I walked off the train into a depowered station at night and couldnt scan off at the station, so I got on a bus and it depleted my card, then the next day I got a ticket for riding the bus without paying because the computer stole all my money and the guy giving me a ticket couldnt care less that I actually payed more than I should have but just kept repeating that I "should have had more money on the card"
Use cash.
Imagine working minimum wage in SF and commuting in by BART + BUS / MUNI Lightrail / CALTRAIN / FERRY. Gotta work at least 2 hours just to cover the costs of your commute every day.
Wait... Employers don't cover travel cost to and from work in America..?
Where do they cover your commuting costs? I've never heard of that.
Nope, very rarely do you see them cover it at all. That's why we hate our 1+ hour drive commutes.
No they don’t
Pretty rarely, far as I know. I've seen some that cover public transit costs at least. It's more common for them to only reimburse costs for travel during work hours or for business related trips.
Where do employers cover the cost of sommuting?
Lmao.
Many do: I believe there is a tax incentive for them. I’ve only had it while working downtown, and in a white collar job. So not where you’d usually drive to work and not for hourly pay.
Given that there are very few required benefits, it can be fairly regressive. You don’t get help with transit unless you’re an aid enough. You don’t get better health coverage unless you’re paid enough.
If you're a fancy tech bro in SF all your costs are covered, health/dental/vision/life insurance, commuting stipend or govt subsidized account you get to put pre-tax money in and the company might match, matching contributions for your retirement 401K. The techbro class doesn't care about the cost of BART, many of them take an UBER for 3-4x the BART faire and not bat and eye at the bill (or use the company UBER account for free). If you're just some random minimum wage worker, you'd be lucky to live within an hour or two commute of SF and afford housing.
They do. You have to apply for it, and there's a ceiling per month.
Toronto’s UP express checking in. $12.35 from down town to the airport. Sub way in the city is cheap and affordable but that dam airport thing is in its own world.
Next topic is toll roads. 407. Full there and back trip during main business hours.
274km = $173.50
It used to be more. Then someone pointed out it was more expensive than a cab from downtown to the airport.
Same in Edinburgh. The buses and trams have a capped fee per day but it doesn't count if you're coming from the airport for some reason...
Edit the listed fare in the post is nearly 4x the actual fare.
As it turns out it doesn’t actually cost that much on regular transit, there’s an AIRPORT SURCHARGE because it’s an “airport train”.
If she's not going to an airport (the pictured station is in SF and not SFO) this is just strait up wrong. As a regular BART rider who's used transbay service for years BART can't tell what trains you ride. They bill purely on the entry and exit station. I've pulled some transfers that on other systems would be wildly expensive to work around occasional systemwide issues without increased cost.
Within SF it costs the fixed Muni rate which is a lot cheaper. It is disturbingly fast and reliable especially as parts of the system date from the Nixon administration. It can be annoying to get to and from though.
Edit:
The furthest fare from Oakland (Coliseum) to the station in the photograph (Montgomery) is 5.20. Using the OAK connector does bring it up to 12.65. Going to SFO from Coliseum is 12.10. Going for some reason airport to airport is 19.55. Not sure where she got $16 from.
Even the listed price is cheaper than cabs or car rentals tho. Cabs charge about 3.50 and then 0.55 for every 5th of a mile. So about $35 for 13 miles.
I think the point is that public transport should be cheaper than driving your own car. That's the only way to encourage adoption.
Unfortunately our country is being run by the cartoon villain from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
Still should be free.
Kansas City had free busses for 2 months.
And, as usual, the state stepped in.
BART, Muni and others are staring down the gun of drastic cuts right now due to COVID gutting their finances. The feds won't help and the state is preparing to have the budget gutted by the Trump administration and is looking for things to cut that won't hurt (these generally don't exist). I find more expensive programs unlikely right now.
I'm just hoping BART doesn't collapse at this point
If it was free, we probably wouldn't have it because the system would have broken down with no money to fix it.
It's still probably significantly cheaper than Uber/Lyft.
Yeah, payed $30 to get from the airport to downtown sf a couple days ago, so probably closer to $50 to get all the way to oakland.
FYI, airport surcharges are very common. Across the bay at Oakland has an airport surcharge. Sydney has them too, which I was happy about because Melbourne doesn't have a train (AU $25 for a bus ticket, which was sold out) nor did Hobart. I recall AREX in Incheon also having a significant fare jump for the airport stops.
For argument purposes, BART is $0.18/mile (19th Oakland <> Berryessa). That's still pretty high for regional public transit, which is mostly due to BART's high farebox recovery. That high recovery is now a problem with the whole pandemic and subsequent slow return of ridership.
London has a expensive express line from Heathrow to the city and a regular underground line that costs a fraction.
Cool. I'll be in London in a few months. Are the express trains nicer or are they the same sets as the local, but faster?
The Narita Express also costs significantly more than the regular train into Tokyo. Airport trains have to account for travelers with a lot of luggage and thus can carry fewer people than regular trains.
BART trainsets are uniform. No special airport trains.
It has been a long time since I've been to Tokyo. Narita trains are nice but I never managed to catch the express. Even so, the local is still really nice. :)
But in Sydney you will pay the surcharge only when you get off or on at the actual airport station.
Just using that line and passing the airport will cost you nothing extra. Usually less than 4 AUD for the whole trip.
It's the same situation with BART. The surcharge only applies when using the airport stations. No extra charge if you're passing by.
There's a lot of reasons public transport isn't popular in the US. Where I live the homeless, some of whom are mentally ill, occupy the light rail trains and stations to escape the brutal cold during the winter. My friend's wife came home crying after finding a turd on a train seat. The cost is $5 for a day pass, far less than a downtown parking spot and it's not confusing at all though service is sparse
i thinks purposely designed that way, because the auto-companies have killed public transportation in the past, local govt simply never had the motivation to build out the infrastructure. the most famous is LA history.
i wondered, who is this person who is so out of touch that she thinks that is a reasonable price, and... she is a former member of congress from orange county who is currently campaigning to be governor of california 🤡
I mostly agree with you but this is in one of the most expensive places in the country. Public transport should be free of course but everything must profit in the USA.
for bart, it charges by the distance, for muni, they recently up thier fees for tickets, they are also have a budget mismangment issue which causes thier budget problems. they waste twice as much as they bring in through fare evasion fees, and transit fees, last i heard they are cutting some services in the summer. and there has some justification for fare evasion(just dont discuss this on reddit, because its mostly been infiltrated by do-gooders conservatives)
caltrain is a seperate agency than, bart, muni.
the mismangment parts: 1 of the problem is they spent twice as much as they are recouping in transit fees, lik 6+ million hiring inspectors over 2-3 million in fees. visit the reddit subs for more info.
Pretty sure must of us aren't going anywhere near Reddit. Muni seems a mess from my perspective, but when I visit there from sac the $8 or whatever it is for all day transit seems reasonable to me. Might have the price wrong, last time I was there was Chinese New Year and I rode the cable cars all day which was totally worth the $8. But I might as well be a tourist so I don't know just how fucked it all is.
oh yea cable car is always more expensive than a single transit ride. pandemic really did a number of people riding the subways, it never fully recover so they have to do everything else to increase the "riders" lost instead of actually attracting more ridership.
like spending and aggressively pursuing fare evaders, spending twice or more than twice in hiring than recouping some fees from them. in reality fares make up less than 20% of thier budget. im guessing federal (washington)wants to see more initiative in justifying thier budget?
Now that trump is in power again, there might not even be money .
Why do you say it's mismanagement?
My understanding is that ridership still hasn't returned to pre-pandemic levels and the state and federal funding that was keeping it afloat has dried up.
JFK rail transfer to Jamaica Queens is like... Shit like 8.50? Then you can get on the 'regular' subway. It's way cheaper (and can take about the same time from Manhattan) than using a taxi or an Uber.
So your airport transportation is 8.50 on top of your metro card (34 a week which easily is covered if you are about the city at all).
WAY cheaper using the subway in NYC than owning a vehicle. A month for the metro is 132 for comparison.
In case anyone is wondering, a one way trip from Oakland International Airport to the Civic Center station in San Francisco (the stop next to City Hall and the city's largest open air fent market) is exactly $12.65.
The trip from Oakland to Civic Center is "just" $5.20, but like OP said, there's a fuckass stupid airport surcharge for the last half mile or so.
Isn’t the idea of such a surcharge to encourage an alternate transit mode?
Apparently they believe they don’t have enough taxis clogging the entrance? Every driver trying to reach my local airport should thank me for taking the airport shuttle.
I don't know if I used the right term by saying "surcharge". They built an extraordinarily expensive trolley line from BART to the airport about ten years back and are charging high fees to cover expenses.
The San Francisco Airport, on the other hand, has an actual surcharge - the main BART line goes direct to SFO but they charge like $5 extra. But SFO also has the same surcharge on taxis and rideshares :/
MARTA is fairly nice. It's a flat $2.50 to get on the train/bus and it includes three bus transfers. Anywhere that makes it just a flat fee is nice. The Chicago L was similar. I don't remember the individual price but their weekly rate was a great deal.
Missed the point. Public transport should be free.
Yeah, absolutely, I was commenting on the complicated part.
I had to go through SF a few times this year. I have no idea how much the transit cost, but it was fucking expensive and I just rode a few times per day across town or to the airport.
I love public transit systems and being free to move around a city using them. It's a truly liberating experience to have real freedom, but damn SF was tough to understand and weird in places. They've got to unify the system and start paying for it or it's going to just keep crushing their downtown areas when no one uses the transit to visit.
Unifying the system might actually hurt it more then help. MUNI the bus and light rail system within the city is relatively cheap, $2.75 fare to ride any where. That's because it's funded mostly by the city because people in the city use and value it more. BART, the metro that's posted in the picture is funded by all the suburban and urban municipalities that it serves in the metro area, and since the suburban cities don't use/ value it as much it's hard to get funding for it passed through taxes so they rely more on fares.
If they unified it then the minority of people in the city wouldn't be able to pass taxes to improve, or at this point maintain, service and we'd get stuck with high fares and low service.
For example in the last election a majority of people voted to tax rideshares to pay for the bus in the city, it didn't pass because another ballot measure that passed had some fine print nullified it, but that kind of measure would never have passed throughout the whole bay area.
The current toll to cross the bay bridge by car from Oakland to sf is $8, and like someone mentioned it's only $4.25 from Oakland to sf without the airport charge, so you are still saving by using bart, just not as much as you probably should.
Bart is expensive, but some of the best transit in America unfortunately. Why I generally just hop the gate by pushing through before the things close
One of the reasons I don't want to live anywhere else in the US is NYC had public transit that mostly works. Even if this weekend I had to do a Q to the N to the 7 to back to the N to get to queens. I played a whole game of Lords of Waterdeep on my phone and read some of my book.
I used to sit on the Prospect Park<->Franklin Ave S shuttle on Saturday mornings and just ride it back and forth while reading a book because it was so calming. Gliding through green backyards in the springtime.
I couldn't handle living in NYC long term, but I did stay, mostly in Brooklyn, for four months. The subway is amazing. I will never drive in that city again if I can avoid it.
The alternative is higher taxes and everyone scoffs at that so...
That’s an expensive fare
People pay to ride the train?
Some good-two shoes do, most do, but alot of people dont. hence reddit had whole host of people being, caught,evading fares,, you got people on there being a know it all, and you should be paying your fare share.
Oh for bay area, there are specific times of the year, that inspectors come out in droves to "ticket" as much people as possible, usually its around summer-to fall, and then maybe winter. there has been discussion how the evasion tickets are much more than TRAFFIC tickets/parking tickets. right now is about 135$ for each violation, and there are all sorts of tricks to avoid that even if yuo get ticketed. there is alot of justification for evading fares.
I pay my taxes, which I’m told goes to public transit, and there was a huge scandal with the transit department in my state a while back where we found out they were fucking everyone over and skimming a fucked up amount of money and the state did pretty much nothing about it, so when the transit department is stealing less from public transit than I am I’ll consider it, but I also feel that public transit should be free, especially if I’m already paying for it.
A bus ticket for me to get to work is $3.50 and it’s about 1h40m. It takes roughly 35-45 minutes to drive. Idk if that’s good or not but I consider myself lucky that I don’t need to transfer buses
This is the norm where I live too, AND my city has a relatively good public transportation system.
people pay for public transport?
Do you live in Luxembourg? Most places have fares for public transport
they probably jump the fare gates
tallinn
Of course! If not at the time of use, then via taxes coming out of their paycheck... but usually both.
dw it was a silly joke
Way less in taxes than road construction and maintenance.