anon discusses car dependence

Buy a 5000 lbs truck to haul less groceries than cyclists do on bikes.

I hate cars and love walkable cities as much as the next guy in this community, but this comparison is just nonsense.

If the only thing you do and are comparing is 4 trips a month to the grocery store that is in walkable distance you are not spending $200 a month on gas and probably also less on maintenance and stuff. And if you are only doing that you also don't need the newest and best car.

I feel like this type of bad faith analogies just hurts the message.

Thr dutch are laughing with their bikes with the massive storage box thing

Bakfiets

Let green text guy live his own definition of an ideal life, but it would be a pretty pathetic life for me if the only place I ever had to go was the grocery store.

He works there too! Eat, sleep and shit at the grocery store. The civilized dream.

Walking to my grocery store and back would be an all day affair and I'd have to have help hauling everything because I'm married with two kids, so our two week grocery bill runs between $200 and $300 depending on what all we need. My closest Walmart is 25 miles away. My closest local grocery store is about 7. And there is no public transportation here.

Rough!
I have 3 large supermarkets in less than a 10 minute walk and another small one that would be “walking from the parking lot” distance.
We also have a local sourdough bakery and a sort of farmers market pickup point within walking distance.
US pilled
- I mean its less us-pilled and more us-locked. If I could snap my fingers and make every city over 500 people walkable, mix-zoned, and locally owned, I would in a heartbeat. But no one built any cities that way outside of the east coast, and even if all the capital in the US was used responsibly, fixing us would be a century-long project. Now show me one politically effective American capable of seeing past tomorrow; I'll wait.
We must have grown up on the same street. Lol

You could take a bus to Costco.....

2 hours, two trains (the first being 21 miles in the wrong direction) and 4 busses for my closest one
- Ah yes, I love when my city's shitty public transit also takes me completely out of the way of my destination
Where i live that makes a 10 minute drive 50 minutes 😭
- Yeah same, if not longer. I just like Costco, that's all lol

That can be a long, painful walk depending on where you live. Even with public transportation, there are stretches (say a mile or more) where you're caring at least 20 lbs of groceries. Without a backpack or a cart, it's quite the pain.

Then bring your backpack, or better yet, a cart. Both can be quite cheap.
- I would walk with my backpack full of grocceries about once a week. The execise is great, walking with extra weight is called rucking and many athletes train by rucking as it builds muscle, endurance, and a bit of cardio while being easier on the joints than running.
- cheap in money, expensive in time and effort.
backpacks are still cheaper than cars
- the point is that a car is labor-saving in the context of groceries.

Here on Copenhagen:

Buy a bicycle for 4000 dkk.
Bike less than 1 km to arrive at Netto/Rema 1000/lidl/Coop 365.
Buy a kanelsnegle for 8 dkk.

bike gone.
- Only in Nørrebro.
Kanelsnegle doesn't even sound like a real word.
Edit: It's a cinnamon bun.
- Kanelsnegle is the plural of kanelsnegl, so I understand the confusion. It should've been a kanelsnegl.
  It literally translates to cinnamon snail.

I lived next to a little natural grocery for a few years. Prices were about 20% higher than the ordinary grocery and maybe double what I'd pay at Costco. At first I was resistant because they seemed to be overcharging so much. Overtime I talked to the employees and realized the savings I made on time and not needing a car more than made up for the higher price. Plus they had to keep prices high because shoplifting was very common.

I started figuring my time and car expenses into future shopping trips and now I don't mind paying a bit more for the local co-op.

This is assuming you live in a walkable town or neighborhood. I remember a reddit post (can't find it anymore) of a guy trying to walk less than 2 miles to an appointment in Orlando. He followed Google Maps directions down the shoulder of a highway that led to a dead-end, backtracked, tried again, and finally made almost all the way to his destination, which was on the opposite side of a 6-lane highway Google wanted him to cross.

I've only ever visited the theme parks in Orlando, but I experienced one intersection I had to share with cars. I spent every walk sign waiting for cars making a turn to yield. Even though I had the right of way, literally none of them did, until I finally had to run across the street because the cars at the red light, who could see I was 1/3 through the intersection, floored it the second their light turned green. Sure, fuck all of those car-brained drivers who refuse to yield to pedestrians, but also fuck that city for not fining drivers for shitty behavior, or at least changing their traffic lights so all cars have red lights when pedestrians have the walk sign.

Anyway, point is, personal choices are important, but they can't overcome the systemic issues created by car culture without collective action. And Orlando sucks ass.

Congrate, your first sentence figured it out.
Maybe you just got here but bud I’m getting so tired of people assuming that people like the person in the post aren’t also the same people screaming for better infrastructure so we can ditch this high dependence on cars. We know that not everywhere is like this and that’s why we also have a MOUNTAIN of examples of even the shittiest places in the US, but also all over the world, doing things to build better for not that much money.
The entire point of the post is to show that people who fight against that change don’t have much of an argument. We know how things are but they don’t need to be like forever. Nearly every city used to be a 15min city before the car and then 50-100 years ago we fucked it all up(because of bribes from car manufacturers) and kept that shit train rolling.
- Yeah, that would be a great point if the entire post wasn't a 4Channer framing this as personal choices and not systemic ones. The dudes not talking about how the car industry destroyed railcars, he's dunking on people who drive to the grocery store, and the implication is clearly, "everyone can and should do this," which is bullshit.
The whole "turn right on red" in north America baffles me as a European.
- American here, this is just as stupid and dangerous as it sounds. The idea is that it's very easy to check for pedestrians before turning but literally almost no one even looks. Even if the crosswalk light is lit they don't notice and just plow right through.
- Oh, this wasn't even a right on red. The green light for cars was lined up with the walk sign for pedestrians going rhe same direction. In a situation like that, when a car with a green light needs to turn through the crosswalk, they are supposed to yield to any pedestrian crossing at that time, but apparently the people of Orlando have so much car entitlement that they don't even slow down when a pedestrian is standing in the middle of the crosswalk trying to complete a legal crossing.
- In NYC it isn't allowed and now I think it's insane we allow it everywhere else.
- it works great if you just break check the fucker that's trying to turn, if you lack the confidence it works less well
- I know this is fuckcars, but I personally I think it makes sense. Our brothers in Lithuania are also doing it (tbf there needs to be a specific sign next to the light saying you can do it).
  The less people spend waiting on pointless traffic lights, the faster cars get to their destination, the less cars there are on the street. At least that's how I view it.
  All of this is of course keeping in mind to always yield to a pedestrian.

here it’s more like this:

don’t own a car no store in reach ??? starve

Once again a post about zoning laws instead of cars.

"I would like to live in a carless society"
v
"I would like somewhere to park my car"
is a real dichotomy that spans both issues.
A great example is my own hometown of Houston, a city famous for its lack of zoning.
By 1978, the city had gutted itself in order to clear space for more parking. It took decades to reverse that mistake and rebuild the interior of the city. A big part of that was the introduction of (still very modest) bus and light rail.
- Still a ton of parking spots I see, could've been replaced by bicycle racks, apartments, and parks.
  The parking spots could have gone underground.

Ok let’s flip this to cherry pick my example.

Don’t need a car most of life, get to 40 and upskill and become a software engineer. Job market is terrible due to saturation and I suck at interviews so can only take a job 40 miles away from home.

No problem.exe. I can take 2.5-3 hour commute each way 5 days a week.

Fast forward a few months and I’m just dead on my feet, do nothing but go to work come home goto bed get up and repeat.

Decide this can’t continue. Can’t afford to move to the bougie town where I work so decide I need a car finally.

Save 12-15 hours per week and it’s not too much more expensive than taking a Metrolink and a train to work with 30 mins of walking too. Plus all the meals you need to eat out of the house when you’re out for 14 hours in a day.

On my days off I’ll take the tram 20 miles each way to go rock climbing but some people actually do need cars and they shouldn’t be made to feel bad for it.

Also the sunk cost of the car’s capital goes toward all the other things you’ll use your car for, like leisure time and driving other humans around. Also the practicality of walking to get groceries decreases as you gain more mouths to feed.
- I've got a family of four, soon to be five. There's no way I could possibly do all my grocery shopping on foot. It's just too much to carry. I'd have to bring a wheelbarrow, and all the ice cream would melt.
- It's also not super practical to walk to get groceries if you live in a hot climate.
- Exactly. I’ve actually used the car at weekends to do some work for friends. So can earn more money with it.

This is also coincidentally how the math works on big box stores.

Big box parking lot/strip mall opens
Save $100 on groceries annually
Pay $150 extra in taxes and gas to maintain and drive on an additional 10 miles of road
Local options shut down, prices go up, and it takes 5 extra minutes to get to box store with increased traffic.
Box store eventually closes due to not being in suburb anyway.

More like box store closes to cash in on real estate sale and then opens new location just a few blocks down the road on the outskirts. Rinse and repeat.

Forgot the gym membership. With a car you can drive to the gym to walk on a treadmill.

Living within 1 kilometer walking distance of a grocery store is amazing. Instead of expensive fast food I can get comparatively inexpensive deli food. And if I want to be frugal and cook meals myself, cheap beans, rice, fresh meat, dairy, and produce are all available. Plus, I get a nice daily walk instead of checks notes from a previous life drive twenty minutes to the gym each day to walk on a treadmill.

The way to go IMO. I'm on a 20-year streak in not having a car. When I pick a new place to live, walkability to a good grocery store is one of my primary considerations. I only shop for one, so lugging groceries is no big deal, and I enjoy the extra exercise.
Throughout my life I've watched people spend all their money on conveniences and degrade physically, mentally, and financially as a result. Why not situate yourself for long-term success from the get-go? I wish more people were conscientious of the energy balance required to sustain a healthy life and best aligns with the environmental impacts we've wrought upon ourselves.
- I just broke my 12 year streak of not having a car. I took a job as a city bus driver. Whaddya do when you're supposed to run the first bus out of the garage and it's too snowy to bike? I feel like a failure and a jerk. But I am trying to move close to the depot, so hopefully I could walk.
I got a rice cooker recently, great investment. I pan fry up whatever, some protein and vegetables, I've got a few good recipes going. With rice. I've been eating healthier and way cheaper. Tonight was chicken, green beans, and various seasonings. Was delicious af and cost me like 1.50$, if that.
I live less than a kilometer from a grocery store but it takes me a half hour to walk there because I’m in a subdivision and there’s no direct sidewalk.
I used to be able to cut across yards but somebody put up a fence to stop that.
The gym is such a waste of energy. With proper form you can get that workout doing useful things. For charity if nothing else.
do grocery stores where you live not have frozen food? that's the ideal in my book: perfectly decent quality and you just have to heat it.

This is the best one i've tried, it's literally just frozen veggies, precooked pasta, chicken, and sauce. Healthy as fuck while tasting great and taking 0 effort to prepare.
- Healthy as fuck is a bit of a stretch for industrially-processed food grown with pesticides. It's better than fast food.
- Oh boy, if you really think these are healthly I have bad news for you... Sure there are worst options around, but that still counts as processed food on my book!

You don't go to Costco to save money, you go so you have an excuse to buy a box of instant ramen.

Just one box? Look over here at Mr. Self Control!
- Well, there's boxes of other things I definitely for sure 100% need to buy

Buy used 110cc motorbike for 250-300USD

pay 30USD a month for fuel because 160mpg

flop over in the middle of traffic because the 25kg bag of rice you're balancing between your legs shifts

My pedal bike can equip pannier carriers - doesn’t something like that exist for motorbikes too?
- Yes, but the rack is already being used to hold the rest of your groceries, family of 5, dog, refrigerator, and all the other things car owners claim they absolutely need a car to transport.
Buy used 110cc motorbike for 250-300USD for faster commute
pay 30USD a month for fuel because 160mpg
get groceries delivered
take tram if it rains or if you feel like it
Which customer buys 25 kg of rice at once? Literally nobody.
Skill issue, regardless.
- Big sack cheap. And motorcycle lifestyle is a sea thing.
- Hey there, Rice-a-Roni - there are 8 billion other people in the world, so it's pretty bold and exceedingly stupid to speak for all of them. In fact, I'll bet there are literally a billion people in the world that buy their rice 25kg at a time. I know it is very common in Hawaiian households, I'd guess that there are more Hawaiians buying 25kg bags of rice than there are Hawaiians buying 1 kg bags.
- Extremely common in Asia.
- That's what the average SEA eats in like 2 days. Its the big bags at any grocery store
  Correct. I have not been riding motorbikes since before I could walk, so I cannot do what the locals do. Yet.
- That's roughly two bags at Costco. Way more than my wife and I would buy for just us, but I could see larger families reasonably buying that much.
- I am looking for places to buy 50 lb sacks of people grain, especially barley. Feed stores sell them but idk what chemicals they use. 20 bucks at feed stores for ag.

Anon obviously has never been to Costco. No way you can leave that place without parting with $100

And no way you only save $5, long as you only buy what you need. We got a sectional for $2k that would have cost $3k elsewhere, and far less than the $5500 LoveSac we were eyeballing.

these days $45 at costco is like two things, and $50 at a regular grocery store is six things.

but the analogy still holds that walking is much cheaper.

I just spent about 150 my last trip and I'm set for a month. No oj though, it's expensive there, too. I could have gotten more but I held back in case I don't get back for a minute.
ETA: I don't have a car and the walk would take days.
Yeah I've been price comparing by unit volume between aldi and BJs cause my dad put me on his BJs membership-
Almost nothing is cheaper at BJs. Rice is. A whole bundle of coconut milk is cheaper.
But like... Unless you're already buying brand names it's frankly a bad deal 😅 and even then I'm curious how much better than Walmart it might actually be
- Whoa, you can get a BJ membership? I thought it was something you always had to pay for each time.
- BJs offered us a deal so we took it.
  Almost every product there (all name brand) costs the same as buying the generic brand at Walmart. Cereal, yogurt, Mac and cheese, toilet paper, I have compared all of it while we have the one year membership.
  Sure, I get name brand, and Jif is better than great value, but I have saved nothing. Won't be renewing when they actually expect me to pay the membership. Sam's club beats Walmart by a little bit but not a lot, and I dont have a Costco or Aldi's near me. How does Aldi's stack compared to BJ's?

Where are you shopping where you can get a weeks worth of food for only 50

Aldi
- £50 would be pushing 2 weeks for both of us. We normally spend £20-30 a week between us. May reduce it further as my garden becomes more productive, already never need to buy rosemary, thyme, sage, chives or mint again.
- Aldi is the shit
If you're single and no kids, it's very doable. Considering this person prefers an active lifestyle, they probably don't spend money on junk food.
Eggs, milk, bread and some vegetables and maybe some fish. Add some soap and hygiene every once in a while then about 50 sounds about right.
My average was around 25 bucks with about a trip every 4 or 5 days or so unless some kind of splurge is added.
- Salmon is 9 dollars a pound at Aldi's milk is 2 bucks eggs are like 2-3.
  Deodorant is about 3-4 dollars. Protein powder is like 2 dollars a serving at Aldi's if I remember right?
  Anyways when I go to Aldi's I usually spend about fifty and that lasts a few days. I have three people in my house though and a growing teen. You can definitely do 50 a week on lean diet that requires you to cook every meal but the more people in the house and the more you work the less this is viable and the more you have to rely on premade shit.
  Aldi's is the shit tho. 8 bucks for three pounds of ground turkey goes a long way
In the year 2022. As per the date of the post in the screenshot.
- Looking back at old receipts is very depressing right now …
I get groceries for a week in auckland at about 70. Considering auckland is the most expensive city in my country, I reckon 50 is fesible in other cities.
How much are rice and dried beans per pound in your parts?
- I wish Aldi stocked dried beans here, only get tinned. Rice is fine though, they also sell oats and they come in compostable paper bags now which is nice, rice is still plastic.
Trader Joe's

If it weren't for weather I wouldn't have a car. Sure, 90 minutes by ebike is a serious time commitment, but I'd save so much money a year it makes sense as a part time job.

But fuck riding a bike on ice for two months lol

Ice ? Canadians do bike in winter too.
- Ice isn't the worst IMO, it's the sloshy zero degree sludge, ice cold rain and biting wind.
- Do they do it for 20+ miles? In the dark?
  Maybe they do.
  I don't want to die.
Studded tires make this a non issue.
- Studded tires are illegal on public roads where I live (i'm pretty confident it applies to bikes too), but i do fine with fat tires. My chain slips if its actively snowing though and for some reason my bolts loosen rather quickly in winter.
- Does it really? I'd think they would help, but actually a non-issue? I'm skeptical.
  Also getting sprayed by a passing ~~asshole~~ car showering me with slush+sand+road salt doesn't sound great either.
- But it cold and I don't want to bundle up like that kid from A Christmas Story.
I ride a bike in winter, though admittedly it’s in a city where frequent plowing and ambient heat make it less of an issue. Funny thing is, I bought my bike in December.
I wear thick winter gear, including gloves, socks, and mask. If I drove, I’d want that sort of gear as soon as I exit my car at the parking lot, so I’d rather just have that all on beforehand and be warm the whole way.
It’s also just not that snowy/icy around here anymore. You might get it for a few days but otherwise it’s just cold and dry.
90 Minutes????? Jesus christ
- I do it about once a week. Plenty of time for audiobooks and podcasts!

Where the fuck is this guy buying a week's groceries for $50? My kids eat more than $50 in cereal per month.

maybe uh, maybe don't buy a bunch of overpriced cereal?
sounds unhealthy, NGL
I just got diapers according to the store it was a great discount, they where from the stores own brand (not even a "premium" brand)
Anyway I paid 26 cents per diaper (for my daughter)
When my son was born 6 years ago I paid 12 cents per diaper.
Every government chart about inflation is just not accurate for your groceries. The official inflation numbers tell me it's about 25% inflation, but in reality for a lot of things it doubled.
- The CPI has been changed a number of times over the past 5 decades, each change lowering the rate. By the old rate just in 2008 social security checks would be on average some 1,200 more a month.
  https://harpers.org/archive/2008/05/numbers-racket/
Aldi is your best bet if nearby. More than 50 a week outside of rice and beans meals but you will not go through 50 a week of cereal. Admittedly their granola is lacking, but it is hard to find good granola anywhere.
- Other stores here are approaching $10 (!) for a bag of granola with minimal add-ins, Aldi is a little plainer but it’s a no-brainer when the same size there is like $3.
22
Obviously you arent familiar with the wood and paint chip hack
- Just start grinding down the foundations of your home and add the sawdust to your rice crispy treats for some extra filling
Have them eat oatmeal with fresh berries and (plain) yoghurt instead of industrially processed sugary garbage.
Lookin back this is irrelevant

My car costed less than 6k. But yeah 1-2k on maintainence, $1200 insurance and probably 2k on gas every year. E-bikes looking very interesting.

Our cargo bike cost 5k€. It basically replaces the car for day to day. Commute, groceries, daycare run. We only use the car for longer trips or the odd airport pick up run.
- Gotta be dope having it not be -10°c for 40% of the year…
What do you spend 1k a year on maintenance on?
- I’ve had two cars before that took about 1k yearly on maintenance. One just had a weird electrical issue that I hoped would actually get fixed eventually (and a tie rod just fell off at one point) and the other car’s A/C went out a couple times, requiring maybe 400USD to recharge. That car was totaled before the AC was ever fixed.
- It's always something with a 20 year old car. Tires, brakes, fluid changes, oh the radiator is leaking, oh a sway bar link broke, oh I destroyed a tire on a pothole, oh I will try in vain to sus out that error code again.

Ok everyone. Make weekly groceries $200 and Costco $190. Does that make a difference about the point of this post? Ya’ll…

I looked at their website and I don't get it, Aldi seems to be cheaper already so why would I bother with costco?
- The website has higher prices than in store
- The only thing costco really has going for it is the odd item that is truly on sale, dependable low prices on some stuff, and quality control. Quality control is the big one. I can't remember most of the tests now, but when olive oil was being looked at, costco was one of the two brands out of something like 32 that was actually what it said on the label. On a couple of other things as well that I remember, like honey, they had the same finding.
It's also ignoring how this person spent so much in gas if they're able to walk everywhere. Surely they're talking public transportation, biking, or they simply have 4 extra hours a day.
But yes owning a car is an expensive grift, but it's one that's hard to avoid in many parts of the US

You guys are spending $40k on a car??
That's nuts.

The price of new cars has gone insane since covid. I regularly watch car reviews and the prices are always shocking - SKODA's costing nearly £40,000, which a few years ago would have got you a decent BMW or Merc.
- You guys are buying new cars??

Usually I need to be at work 08:00 or 08:10. Furthermore, the same trip by car takes approximately 30-35 minutes during rush hour. This means my car saves me approximately 1-3hrs every working day (valued ~4k€/yr based on my current wages).

My car cost ~1k€ 8 years ago and maybe an additional 1.5k€ maintenance per year (a lot of which I do myself) + 2.5k€ fuel + insurance + tax - compared to 800€ for a public transit card.

Our family home is valued at 110k€, the same money would buy a 1 room studio apartment in the city.

I can cycle to the next town over in 25 minutes at any time of day, less if I got an ebike. Driving during rush hour can take an hour.
Though they moved our office 50+ miles away so I am using that as my reason to never return to the office. Looking for a new job just in case though.
- Sounds nice, it would be lovely to have the means to live like that.
If I value your time at 99999999999999999€/hour how much do you make?
- I'll give you a 99.99% discount on that rate, when can I start working? Get in touch at Iceblade02@proton.me
  ;)
Woah you're so good with money
conclusión?
- The infrastructure is too car dependent and OP is navigating within it really well?
- a) Housing is expensive in urban areas.
  b) Public transit has difficulty competing outside urban areas due to being relatively slow and inflexible when demand and service is low.
  c) Cars win on convenience and service, due to the alternative cost of time.

Must be nice to live where public transit works. 2h to get to and from work each way not including daycare dropoff just ain't it. Give me feasible public transit and a walkable city and I'll get rid of my car.

Only the rich or the dumb buy new. You can still get decent used cars for a fair bit cheaper.

Used car market is getting cooked. People are holding onto their cars longer. When they get into even a minor crash, they are often totalled because of how expensive parts are. Independent mechanics are being pushed out because there's nothing worth fixing.
The end result will be buy new or don't.

It would be so much we easier if they just admitted they were in highschool. Sure. The only thing I need a car for if groceries. The only thing this person needs a car for is 45$ of Mom's Costco membership worth of Doritos

Have you heard of public transit? Quite useful for getting places.
- I moved to a major European city. Seeing people (and now doing it myself) bringing home furniture on the bus or train is great. I don't own a car anymore. Between a small wheelie cart and larger stuff coming via delivery with the order, we've been furnishing our apartment without trouble.
  The percentage of days we needed a big vehicle was always low. Buying and maintaining a car when there's actual modern public transit is only for extreme edge cases.
- What's public transit? Will that drive me 50 miles to work at the exact time I need it to?
  I'm salty my country is like this. Fucking stupid
- Not really useful in many places. And for most homes, it's non existent
  A bike maybe. But you can only carry so much groceries on a bike without it being a very frustrating experience.
I'm almost 40 and that's about all I use mine for, outside of camping trips.

In urbania

My house was 420k in an upper middle class single family suburban home with 2400 sq ft vs 1M for a 600 sq ft condo.

Eat my ass 🤣

how much do you spend on fuel commuting to the city? that 1M in the city is buying you a lot more than the 600 sq ft.
from your 420k suburban home, what's the average distances to your: doctor, groceries, place of worship or study or work?
Do you own a car? Whats the median distance of commutes in a typical year for you?
We also shouldn't forget time cost of your commutes. Median time spent commuting in a year you could have spent doing other things.
Sure i agree with you that suburb is better if you have public transit connecting you to the city from your home in the suburbs and you use it regularly.
- About 2k miles a year. I'm my f150 I spend about $800 a year in gas. Maybe 15 minutes a day.
  Ignoring every other part of cost of living, it'll never be even, it's not even close.
  Oh and the time, it's 10 minutes through my neighborhood. I don't get on a road with a speed limit above 35 and I have a single stop sign along the way. My daughter is with me, we're going to daycare, and I'm going to miss it now that bus service picks her up literally in my driveway.
Do you have two gyms and a pokéstop, though?
- I'll take my 911 tyvm
this is the second time i see you and again your take is bad, why?
- This guy has fewer brain cells than his country has high speed rail lines. Easier to just block him
- My take is fantastic. If your only concern is cost it's clearly cheaper to live in America without public transit. It's dead simple shit.
  Going to start name calling again with nothing to back up your little meme 😞?